Bette Kane: Flamebird,Hawkfire, and the First Batgirl Appreciation 2019

[Oberon]

BINGO! Steph is a new sort of version of the old Betty, than Bette.

[Oberon]

. . . . I actually think all of this could be cleared up, all of this could be revised, *and* reinvigorated by the Doomsday Clock, missing 10/whatever years in the DC verse.

All of Bette/Betty's contradictions and in and outs with the time line; Bat-girl with a different Batwoman, 'eventual-cousin' of Bruce, along with Kate, the modern Batwoman, the years she was absent between Silver Age and late '70s Teen Titans, her reinvention as Flamebird several years after COIE and then somehow still being that sort of person, though not explicitly, when Kate as Batwoman has her showing up in Elegy and Cutter.

All these things point to a character who silently has been there, but somehow not/invisible - just like the strange under/overlaps in the time stream - all the Robins in so-called 10 years -

All of this could give a story about why and where she went, why it matters. Maybe in all that missing years stuff, there is more to the Kryptonian connection than we know.

[Tzigone]

BINGO! Steph is a new sort of version of the old Betty, than Bette.

I don't think she's that similar - or at least was not when created. She also wasn't nearly so upbeat/quippy until she was brought back in the latter 2000s. I prefer the old characterization of Steph.

[Bat-Meal]

I don't think she's that similar - or at least was not when created. She also wasn't nearly so upbeat/quippy until she was brought back in the latter 2000s. I prefer the old characterization of Steph.

But the other thing I forgot to mention that makes them so similar is that both were partially created as GFs to Robins. Betty GF to Dick, Steph GF to Tim. Also both nearly get themselves killed trying to prove themselves to either Batwoman or Batman. Bette, nearly killed by the Cutter, when she rushes off to fight him alone. Steph, wargames.

I do think Steph is more sulky, and Bette more determined though (now at Westpoint, and still doesn't whine when Kate insists on crazy standards). The way Steph betrayed her own team in 'Tec, I couldn't see Bette ever doing something like that, she's loyal to Kate to a fault. Steph is younger and has more issues (supervillain parent), so her sense of self being more muddled makes sense. By contrast Bette seems to know who she is and what she wants to be, it's just convincing others to see her the same way that is the problem.

I do think Bette deserves more 'screen-time', as she has plenty of potential, but the Bat-Fam is so big and she belongs in Batwoman's family - if only Batwoman still had a book. Batwoman's family was gradually written-out, to the point that even Jacob wasn't Kate's tech support anymore in her second solo, replaced by a Batman character Julia Pennyworth. Renee may be back, but otherwise it feels to me like Kate's father, younger cousin, and stepmother were all sidelined or removed as an attempt to push Kate more into the main Bat-Fam - but all it's really done is make Kate less interesting without her own support network away from Bruce's.

No matter who from the Bat-Fam Kate is put with, they are always going to have known Bruce first, and probably have loyalty to him first. That makes Kate just another support character to Bruce, making her secondary, because the narrative is who are all these people to Bruce. Jacob, and Bette are tied to Kate first and foremost, so the narrative is who are they to Kate and each other, then who they are to Bruce comes afterwards - he isn't the centre for a change.

Bette would choose Kate over Bruce, no question, and has before in the first Batwoman solo. That alone sets her apart from the other 'Batgirls', and the Robins. Also, as I said before, she doesn't complain when Kate sets unfair standards such as when Kate made her dress in gray and said she had to be Plebe instead of Flamebird - she just goes with it and isn't deterred. Compare this to Tim's complaining (about the training being unfair) and constantly challenging Kate's authority in 'Tec. The relationship is more interesting because Bette still stands-up to Kate (telling her she still has the Flamebird suit, placing a tracker on her to find out what she's hiding, and being part of the intervention in the first solo) without resorting to whining and/or yelling (the kids in 'Tec) or outright assaulting her (Tim, Steph, Cass). In other words she has a good grip of her emotions, and a better sense of empathy, which makes sense since she is neither a teenager and has presumably known Kate for years - so she can understand why Kate (and Jacob) do what they do. Doesn't mean she always agrees with them of course, but to me she seems more the sort to reason than be as reactionary (like when she was shocked that Kate turned Batman down at joining the Bat-Family the first time). I suspect she is generally more even-tempered than a lot of the other 'Batgirls' regardless.

She needs to be back at Batwoman's side, preferably with the Flamebird mantle, but back to Hawkfire if not.

[Tzigone]

But the other thing I forgot to mention that makes them so similar is that both were partially created as GFs to Robins.

No, Steph wasn't created that way. Tim was dating Ariana then. She was certainly used that way later, but not created for the purpose.

The way Steph betrayed her own team in 'Tec, I couldn't see Bette ever doing something like that, she's loyal to Kate to a fault.

I couldn't ever see Steph doing that. Or the JLA brainwashing people. Or Wally framing innocents for murder. But if DC wants it, it happens, even if it is inconsistent with prior actions. And sometimes it keeps and gets folded in.

No matter who from the Bat-Fam Kate is put with, they are always going to have known Bruce first, and probably have loyalty to him first.

Possibly, but I hate that dynamic. I'm tired of everything centering on him, of him controlling everything. Once upon a time, they some had relationship with each other and not with him (or at least relationships with Bruce were far less important) and I much preferred that dynamic.

Bette would choose Kate over Bruce, no question, and has before in the first Batwoman solo. That alone sets her apart from the other 'Batgirls', and the Robins.

Don't know that I agree that sets her apart.

She needs to be back at Batwoman's side, preferably with the Flamebird mantle, but back to Hawkfire if not.

I don't really agree, but don't have strong opinions on Bette. To me, the Bette/Kate dynamic simply does not work or make sense the way the Betty/Kathy one did, given each character's history. And she is way past sidekick or junior partner age, and needs to be developed as an independent hero, if she's going to be developed.

[Bat-Meal]

I couldn't ever see Steph doing that. Or the JLA brainwashing people. Or Wally framing innocents for murder. But if DC wants it, it happens, even if it is inconsistent with prior actions. And sometimes it keeps and gets folded in.

But she did, and so far Bette has not, and now it's cannon. Steph has been a traitor, Bette has not - and that differentiates them now.

Possibly, but I hate that dynamic. I'm tired of everything centering on him, of him controlling everything. Once upon a time, they some had relationship with each other and not with him (or at least relationships with Bruce were far less important) and I much preferred that dynamic.

I don't like it either, but they all rally around Bruce.

Don't know that I agree that sets her apart.

Considering that in that 'Tec run Batwoman served as a punching-bag for Batman's sidekicks, I sure see it that way. Steph, Tim, and Cass all got at least one shot in at punching and yelling at Kate (or in Steph's case tasering and belittling). Didn't see them whack Bruce when they got angry with him though, just yelled at him. The writer for whatever reason wanted stories involving Batwoman getting attacked by teenagers, who are meant to be on the same side.

I don't really agree, but don't have strong opinions on Bette. To me, the Bette/Kate dynamic simply does not work or make sense the way the Betty/Kathy one did, given each character's history. And she is way past sidekick or junior partner age, and needs to be developed as an independent hero, if she's going to be developed.

Close to zero chance of her getting her own series at this stage. It's either with Batwoman, or in a team somewhere, or in a team with Batwoman. If the Batwoman TV series does well, she'll get more recognition, albeit with the name Mary Hamilton instead of Bette Kane. If she does well on TV, more might start to happen with her in the comics, though she'll likely still need to be connected to Kate somehow, at least for a while.

[Oberon]

This is a very nice summation. Thanks.

[Oberon]

I agree with most of this recent discussion. I'm not very well versed with Steph, only recently. So I don't know or see how she is actually a bit different. I like the points made on how Bette is more loyal to Bruce and would continue that; not switching to Bruce if circumstance started moving that way.

In my perfect world, I see the stories leading up to and included in the Batwoman's first volume giving an arc to how that dynamic of a team is so different from almost any version of Batman with a Robin.

I think that is what totally ignited my gushing over Bette. Her adventures in the '80s and up to/about modern Batwoman seemed pointless, mostly. Williams, et al, took her and gave her a much more defined sense of realism as potential partner. They'd done it with Batwoman!

I only began reading DC, again - after decades - because Batwoman was so different, and thrilling. Nothing like Bruce to me. So with the retooling of Bette, it was perfect.

I so miss how that warbled after the original creators left 'Batwoman'.

[Bat-Meal]

Mary Hamilton (pretty much Bette Kane) looks like she will be the Team's medic on the television series Batwoman:
https://twitter.com/BatwomanBR/statu...67197540638721

BatwomanMarySept2019.jpg

[millernumber1]

BINGO! Steph is a new sort of version of the old Betty, than Bette.

We've had this conversation before, and Tzigone does a good job of explaining why it's wrong. I would strongly recommend checking out more of Steph to make that analysis, rather than going on impressions.

It's really disheartening to pop into the Bette thread hoping for some nice conversation about Bette, but find a bunch of conversation bashing another character I love.

[Bat-Meal]

In the comics Bette was Kate's tech support for a while, I think it was during the Andreyko run, she was shown using the computers in Batwoman's headquarters, and I think it was in the JH Williams run that Kate comments that Bette was good with computers.

But in the TV series we know Luke has to be the main tech support, so Bette's equivalent Mary has to instead be medical support. This works of course, as Bette in the comics was doing a degree in sports medicine, although we never actually saw her patch-up Kate in the comics.

I still think Mary Hamilton really is Bette Kane, albeit with a few changes to her background, and name obviously. What do you guys think? Spiritually the same character? I guess we'll find out in a few weeks anyway.

[Caivu]

I still think Mary Hamilton really is Bette Kane, albeit with a few changes to her background, and name obviously. What do you guys think? Spiritually the same character? I guess we'll find out in a few weeks anyway.

She's the same character, just with those changes you mentioned. Bette's actual first name is Mary. And Mary Hamilton seems to act largely the same.

[Bat-Meal]

She's the same character, just with those changes you mentioned. Bette's actual first name is Mary. And Mary Hamilton seems to act largely the same.

I wonder too how much the relationship will be differ, since they are step-sisters instead of cousins. Looks like Mary will be like Luke and in on Kate's secret from the start.

[astro@work]

In the comics Bette was Kate's tech support for a while, I think it was during the Andreyko run, she was shown using the computers in Batwoman's headquarters, and I think it was in the JH Williams run that Kate comments that Bette was good with computers.

But in the TV series we know Luke has to be the main tech support, so Bette's equivalent Mary has to instead be medical support. This works of course, as Bette in the comics was doing a degree in sports medicine, although we never actually saw her patch-up Kate in the comics.

I still think Mary Hamilton really is Bette Kane, albeit with a few changes to her background, and name obviously. What do you guys think? Spiritually the same character? I guess we'll find out in a few weeks anyway.

I'm sad that they're not calling her Bette or Bette Kane...but agreed that "spiritually" this is Bette. It will be interesting to see if they take her down the road of becoming Kate's sidekick/apprentice in battle. Most of the Arrowverse characters eventually introduce the sidekicks after giving the main character some time to shine as a solo act. Hoping the same will happen here.

[Oberon]

We've had this conversation before, and Tzigone does a good job of explaining why it's wrong. I would strongly recommend checking out more of Steph to make that analysis, rather than going on impressions.

It's really disheartening to pop into the Bette thread hoping for some nice conversation about Bette, but find a bunch of conversation bashing another character I love.

MN1, I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't mean to bash Steph but do believe that almost all concepts are recycled, even if not exactly. That is why we have a Batwoman, who is almost the original Batwoman on certain levels (similar name, mostly, KK).

Even as "Flamebird" the concept is recycled from the earlier Jimmy Olsen.

At least Steph seems to get more panel time than Bette; been more than a year for her I think.