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  1. #106
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    MN1, I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't mean to bash Steph but do believe that almost all concepts are recycled, even if not exactly. That is why we have a Batwoman, who is almost the original Batwoman on certain levels (similar name, mostly, KK).

    Even as "Flamebird" the concept is recycled from the earlier Jimmy Olsen.

    At least Steph seems to get more panel time than Bette; been more than a year for her I think.
    Thanks, Oberon. I agree that all concepts are recycled - but I think it's more in a Platonic Form way, generally (and specifically in Steph's case), where tropes and ideas have power than multiple writers and artists draw from, rather than copying a copy.

    I do miss Bette a lot. It's really a shame that she doesn't seem to have any creators who want to seriously use her - she deserves some time in the spotlight.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  2. #107
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astro@work View Post
    I'm sad that they're not calling her Bette or Bette Kane...but agreed that "spiritually" this is Bette. It will be interesting to see if they take her down the road of becoming Kate's sidekick/apprentice in battle. Most of the Arrowverse characters eventually introduce the sidekicks after giving the main character some time to shine as a solo act. Hoping the same will happen here.
    I suspect they changed her name to avoid confusion. If 'Bette' was still Kate's cousin, then Batman has 3 cousins instead of 2 (Kate and 'Alice'), and then where are Bette Kane's parents? It gets kinda messy, though I wish they'd kept her name as Bette as IMO is sounds cooler than Mary. They only really had to get rid of the Kane part, though I guess Bette Hamilton doesn't flow as nice as Mary Hamilton.

    I suspect both Mary and Luke will eventually suit-up, but not in the first season. I hope they don't overdo it though, as those two and maybe Sophie are plenty enough, and the team sizes in the other Arrowverse shows have gotten out of control at times.

  3. #108
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    "Betty" Hamilton... is that Archie's Betty?

    But yeah, simplify. I suspect that Mary will become a vigilante at some point. Possibly "Flamebird" even.

  4. #109
    Fantastic Member astro@work's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    I suspect they changed her name to avoid confusion. If 'Bette' was still Kate's cousin, then Batman has 3 cousins instead of 2 (Kate and 'Alice'), and then where are Bette Kane's parents? It gets kinda messy, though I wish they'd kept her name as Bette as IMO is sounds cooler than Mary. They only really had to get rid of the Kane part, though I guess Bette Hamilton doesn't flow as nice as Mary Hamilton.

    I suspect both Mary and Luke will eventually suit-up, but not in the first season. I hope they don't overdo it though, as those two and maybe Sophie are plenty enough, and the team sizes in the other Arrowverse shows have gotten out of control at times.
    Agree that they were probably avoiding the "too many Kanes" issue here. Still I've always felt there was story potential behind Bette's parents. So little has been said about them, and I don't recall them ever being seen, that it begs the question "what happened to them?" Well maybe one of these days we'll get the whole story there.

  5. #110
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I have a 'head-canon' about Bette's parents. Semi - ooky - like any soap operatic themed comic might be.

    Twins run in families, so Bette's father is Jacob's brother. Let's call him Phillip, since that has been suggested as a Kane brother to Jacob or Martha or whatever.

    Now the other thing about twins, is that there is slight statistical evidence to show that in some same sex twins, one of them might be gay - like Kate and Alice, for example.

    But what if Jacob's brother, Phil, is/was also gay?

    In my head canon, Phillip marries for the family, but does not wish to consummate his marriage. Jacob and he agree to 'switch' places for the wedding night (or some opportune situation) and so it ends up that Jacob is the actual father of Bette.

    So it is decided that no one else needs to know (Jacob does of course). Bette is actually a half-sister to Kate, though she herself doesn't know. But it explains Jacob's intense feelings when Bette was in the hospital over the Hook's attack and . . .

    isn't this the stuff of soaps and comics? Unknown/unheard long lost siblings, etc.

    Bette's mom, is not in the picture at all. She eventually realized what happened and divorced Phil. This is one of the reasons why Bette as the youthful 'Bat-girl' was sent to live with that other Aunt Kathy in Gotham City (eventually discovering her ID as the first Batwoman, etc.). Too much angst for the rather young teen/pre-teen to be exposed to.

    Since I don't believe we've ever heard of a single living parent for Bette, I would say this is the easy way to answer the question. They're out of the picture, completely. Maybe after the divorce of Phillip and Bette's mother, they both abandon most Kane family functions and eventually pass away or are not relevant in any way.

  6. #111
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astro@work View Post
    Agree that they were probably avoiding the "too many Kanes" issue here. Still I've always felt there was story potential behind Bette's parents. So little has been said about them, and I don't recall them ever being seen, that it begs the question "what happened to them?" Well maybe one of these days we'll get the whole story there.
    Now that she's Kate's step-sister though, I wonder if that means they didn't know each other until adulthood, if they keep with the comics where Jacob marries Catherine Hamilton right after Kate gets kicked-out of Westpoint - or if they'll change it so the marriage happens much earlier, possibly when Kate is still a teen.

    I see the latter happening, as there needs to be enough of an established relationship, and trust, for Mary to be able to be in on Kate's Batwoman activities early on. Them not knowing each other until adulthood could work too, but not as well, it would require more work, and the schedule would difficult depending on how shortly after Point Rock Kate leaves Gotham to train for 3 years.

  7. #112
    Fantastic Member astro@work's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Now that she's Kate's step-sister though, I wonder if that means they didn't know each other until adulthood, if they keep with the comics where Jacob marries Catherine Hamilton right after Kate gets kicked-out of Westpoint - or if they'll change it so the marriage happens much earlier, possibly when Kate is still a teen.

    I see the latter happening, as there needs to be enough of an established relationship, and trust, for Mary to be able to be in on Kate's Batwoman activities early on. Them not knowing each other until adulthood could work too, but not as well, it would require more work, and the schedule would difficult depending on how shortly after Point Rock Kate leaves Gotham to train for 3 years.
    From the promoes, they seem to be hinting that Kate's "years away" are still part of her story in the show. I do like the idea of Jacob marrying Catherine sooner rather than later, so that Mary Hamilton has had time to build a relationship with Kate. If Kate is going to take her into her inner Batwoman circle she would need to trust her.

  8. #113
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astro@work View Post
    From the promoes, they seem to be hinting that Kate's "years away" are still part of her story in the show. I do like the idea of Jacob marrying Catherine sooner rather than later, so that Mary Hamilton has had time to build a relationship with Kate. If Kate is going to take her into her inner Batwoman circle she would need to trust her.
    Yeah, I think they'll have known each other since their teenage years, which also means Kate and Catherine will have more of a relationship than in the comics. And of course, now that Catherine is Mary's mother that will be interesting to see, not sure if Bette and Catherine ever spoke in the comics, but then in the comics they were not mother and daughter.

  9. #114
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    In "Elegy" one of the earlier works about Batwoman, Bette is reintroduced in the story as a cousin who has always been fond of Kate. Jacob and Cathy both try to get Kate to notice Bette more, but Kate is distracted due to her story with the Religion of Crime and related foes. This was when I knew I would love this comic/story.

  10. #115
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Another one of my pieces, related to a couple of Bette-centric stories I've posted here:

    Kate_and_Bette_Kane,_2017_NCBA_Championships_by_TBWMN.jpg

    Kate and Bette, shortly after Bette won the NCBA women's lightweight title on April 8, 2017.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  11. #116
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I was actually able to watch "Batwoman" again as the encore presentation, last night after "The Flash" and I guess while I noticed just a little of what I missed or didn't pick up on, I'm fairly confident that Mary will not be a fighting team-mate of Kate's. She'll be her own character, which is good. Since she is a step sister due to Catherine's marriage to Jake, it is still possible that in another season or so, we might see another cousin - Bette. They have not ruled out that Martha, Jake and possibly another brother are/were all siblings. I know how these ensemble genre series go. There can be a shakeout after the first season; actors deciding to not renew, etc. That is usually when they may introduce new characters or dynamics in the subsequent seasons. So who knows?

    Overall I still think it was better than okay and enjoyed it enough to fully watch twice. But I'm not that hard to please.

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Comic questions.

    Bette has always meant to be Bethy right? Unlike Kathy who Morrison brought back, she hasn't got a silver age version separated from the current version?

    Beyond being Batgirl in the silver age thinly designed simply to fulfill comics code criterion, has she ever had an origin?
    How old was she at that time? Same age as Robin I presume? 12-14?

    Reading the first picture in the first post, the Post Crisis version has always been Flamebird, began at 16 instead, older than her Pre Crisis counterpart, continue to college and into New 52 where she's almost killed by hook man, and after that became Firehawk. How old was she when she's Firehawk? Same age as Nightwing?

    From Pre Crisis to Post to New 52 to Rebirth has she undergone significant personality change?

    Seems like the Post Crisis version was also infatuated with Dick Grayson. When did that stop?
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 10-09-2019 at 05:27 AM.

  13. #118
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Those are good and fair questions. The answers are murky and maybe unfair - but mostly to Bette or Betty, snicker.

    The original Batwoman never totally went out of canon, I'm pretty sure. Just not referred to very often and somewhat revised - then majorly with Morrison's work, which is where Bette is shown. But there never is a clear transition to show that they are one and the same.

    They're mostly assumed to be. There is a panel from (possibly) Teen Titans, in more recent era, but years ago, where Cass Cain as Batgirl is fighting Bette as Flamebird, and the latter says "Batgirl, been there, done that" to her opponent.

    The only more recent 'merging' of this character comes in Batwoman's original run's annual, (there may have been more than one) which shows Kanes mixing with Waynes when Bette would have been around the age of "Bat-girl" possibly. But the link is unclear because VS her Silver-Age appearance it seems only that she is involved with the Kanes; knows Aunt Kathy, and seems to come from not nearby, possibly another state even.

    Indeed her modern appearances in Detective with modern Batwoman (Elegy and Cutter story/lines) shows she was previously public as Flamebird, but no real connection to Robin(s), Teen Titans (except that one mention that was later deleted) or her '80/90s type appearances.

  14. #119
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Yes, Betty was originally a bookend to Robin per the comic code and/or public backlash on Batman and comics back then.

    Possibly the intent of her revival and retcon as Flamebird is homage but it is still essentially a bookend to then Nightwing.

    It isn't until Kate Kane as Batwoman stories that Betty is reintroduced without much fanfare at first (Elegy), now as "Bette". I only by chance read this story as it was collected in TPB and owned by the public library I work at. I was aware of her recent revival with DC, the 52 series, and knew the general twist on tropes, but just wasn't really reading much of DC at that time. So Batwoman, and Bette kinda changed that, and it would be nice if DC might actually "own" her and do something worthwhile. I think since BW's original series with her fleeting appearances and mentions in Detective a few years ago, someone is trying / continuing to break her meme as 'semi-silly' bookend or foil to Robin or Nightwing. I think there is a good story or set of stories about Bette; just needs for the right writer who might care enough, to create them.

  15. #120
    Fantastic Member astro@work's Avatar
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    After watching the pilot, it dawned on me that having a Beth already on the show, also having a Bette might be confusing. Hence the change to Mary.
    (Beth is obviously going to be a prominent character).

    While having a Kate, Kathy, and Catherine in the comics is amusing, having multiple similarly named characters would just be annoying on the show.

    So now the change from Bette to Mary makes a lot more sense to me.

    Also, the name change would also allow for a Bette to be introduced later if Mary doesn't become Flamebird down the line or goes a different route. This already happened on Arrow with Laurel Lance later giving way to Dinah Drake (after Laurel's death).

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