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  1. #28246
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    I love the original Phoenix saga, but I hate the Phoenix force with a passion, so I am also happy that Phoenix is gone from Jean’s life (for now - we know it won’t last). I hate the way they brought Jean back in 1986. And I actually think it had more to do with sexism than the fact that they didn’t think readers would accept Jean now that she had killed a planet. I think the same culture that said that a woman couldn’t be as powerful as Thor simply couldn’t accept that a woman could have become as powerful as Jean was as Dark Phoenix. Maybe it wasn’t said aloud, but I think it was easier for them to accept that it was this separate cosmic entity and not Jean herself. If Jean had been a man, she would have been resurrected in an entirely different way, I am sure of it.
    (And yes, I am just speculating.)
    misogyny still affects how many female characters are characterized in reference to their Male counterparts so I dont think you are off basis with your assessment.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  2. #28247
    Spectacular Member johnnysv75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I agree with the point they were at the same level before dark Phoenix. I just think were we disagree is if she was the level of Ororo when she saved the universe. I am inclined to believe the article that I originally posted which indicates they were at equivalent levels when she saved the universe. I also agree with your point about Claremont point.. why do you think her potential is higher than Jean's just curious?
    Since this is Jean’s appreciation thread, let me first say that in my opinion Jean is the greatest telepath/telekinetic the Marvel universe has efter seen. Yes, I think she’s greater than Xavier. Not much in the world can stand against her raw psi powers. :-) But Ororo is in tune with the atmosphere and the ecosystem - she is in tune with the planet itself, especially since her source of power is the electromagnetic field. And that is something not even Jean can match.

  3. #28248
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysv75 View Post
    Since this is Jean’s appreciation thread, let me first say that in my opinion Jean is the greatest telepath/telekinetic the Marvel universe has efter seen. Yes, I think she’s greater than Xavier. Not much in the world can stand against her raw psi powers. :-) But Ororo is in tune with the atmosphere and the ecosystem - she is in tune with the planet itself, especially since her source of power is the electromagnetic field. And that is something not even Jean can match.
    very interesting point thank you for the explanation.
    and I would agree jean is one the greatest if not the greatest mind in universe.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 08-03-2018 at 04:46 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  4. #28249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    We have to remember that when Claremont inherited Jean, she was the Silver Age version who's biggest feat was being able to focus her TK to allow her to levitate. Her powers never grew past that as women in general were treated as weak. Claremont didnt view that for Jean and need to evolve her powers bc Silver Age Jean simply wasnt viable for the threats his X-men would be facing. Back then, there was no cosmic force; Phoenix was an evolution of Jean's own potential complete with a new codename adn costume. Outsided of the M'kraan crystal healing, her power levels were not OP. She was a very viable member of the team. Regular Jean as we've seen in X-Factor through Revolution was just as powerful as Jean was during those Claremont Phoenix issues. People just seem to focus on the M'kraan healing and Dark Phoenix Saga, both those were exceptions and not her normal power levels. Of course other writers and retcons created the PF as a seperate cosmic entity and amped up its powers so that people dont think that Jean can be Phoenix and viable at the same time, when originally that was not the case
    Don't agree. Stan Lee's Jean may have been pretty weak. The later Silver Age Jean could hold her own with any of the other X Men, powers wise. If she needed a power boost to compete than the rest of them needed one as well.

    X FACTOR Jean was plenty powerful up through the 90s, but she didn't do anything like repair the M'kraan crystal. The entire Phoenix story is only about 36 issues. You can't take about 12 of them and go, those don't count. That's a third of the run.

    Didn't Claremont, at one point, talk about her own psychic circuit inhibitors? Something like that. When they fight Magneto, she has him beat then her powers short out. She's reaching for more power and there is no more there. Otherwise, she was overpowering him.

    In my mind, once you have her plateau at the levels she reached to fix the crystal, it's an established boundary that the character has shown she can reach. No, no we'll take that away UNTIL the next time you need her to be uber powerful.

    And I read the quotes from the Companion. The Sanderson Claremont conversation. If the plan was that it really was a one time deal that certainly makes her more workable. They fought Proteus, who was extremely powerful, and it's not like she took him out by herself. There is also about a year's worth of stories where she isn't fighting. The X Men do the fighting and they think she's dead at the time. And vice versa. You could also make the same argument about Mastermind . If she was omnipotent he would have never been able to take control of her.

  5. #28250
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancer View Post
    Don't agree. Stan Lee's Jean may have been pretty weak. The later Silver Age Jean could hold her own with any of the other X Men, powers wise. If she needed a power boost to compete than the rest of them needed one as well.

    X FACTOR Jean was plenty powerful up through the 90s, but she didn't do anything like repair the M'kraan crystal. The entire Phoenix story is only about 36 issues. You can't take about 12 of them and go, those don't count. That's a third of the run.

    Didn't Claremont, at one point, talk about her own psychic circuit inhibitors? Something like that. When they fight Magneto, she has him beat then her powers short out. She's reaching for more power and there is no more there. Otherwise, she was overpowering him.

    In my mind, once you have her plateau at the levels she reached to fix the crystal, it's an established boundary that the character has shown she can reach. No, no we'll take that away UNTIL the next time you need her to be uber powerful.

    And I read the quotes from the Companion. The Sanderson Claremont conversation. If the plan was that it really was a one time deal that certainly makes her more workable. They fought Proteus, who was extremely powerful, and it's not like she took him out by herself. There is also about a year's worth of stories where she isn't fighting. The X Men do the fighting and they think she's dead at the time. And vice versa. You could also make the same argument about Mastermind . If she was omnipotent he would have never been able to take control of her.
    Beast was an Avenger and with the exception of Scott, Claremont promptly got rid of all the Silver Age characters. Maybe they might have gotten upgrades as well, but he wasnt interested in using them when he first started writing

  6. #28251
    Extraordinary Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancer View Post
    Don't agree. Stan Lee's Jean may have been pretty weak. The later Silver Age Jean could hold her own with any of the other X Men, powers wise. If she needed a power boost to compete than the rest of them needed one as well.

    X FACTOR Jean was plenty powerful up through the 90s, but she didn't do anything like repair the M'kraan crystal. The entire Phoenix story is only about 36 issues. You can't take about 12 of them and go, those don't count. That's a third of the run.

    Didn't Claremont, at one point, talk about her own psychic circuit inhibitors? Something like that. When they fight Magneto, she has him beat then her powers short out. She's reaching for more power and there is no more there. Otherwise, she was overpowering him.

    In my mind, once you have her plateau at the levels she reached to fix the crystal, it's an established boundary that the character has shown she can reach. No, no we'll take that away UNTIL the next time you need her to be uber powerful.

    And I read the quotes from the Companion. The Sanderson Claremont conversation. If the plan was that it really was a one time deal that certainly makes her more workable. They fought Proteus, who was extremely powerful, and it's not like she took him out by herself. There is also about a year's worth of stories where she isn't fighting. The X Men do the fighting and they think she's dead at the time. And vice versa. You could also make the same argument about Mastermind . If she was omnipotent he would have never been able to take control of her.
    Beast was an Avenger and with the exception of Scott, Claremont promptly got rid of all the Silver Age characters. Maybe they might have gotten upgrades as well, but he wasnt interested in using them when he first started writing. He did have use for Jean, which is why he gave her that boost.

  7. #28252
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    Has this been posted here yet? Preview of X-Men Blue #33
    http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...x-men-blue-33/

  8. #28253
    Goblyn King Drey's Avatar
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    I'm also just going to add that while Jean received a power upgrade, so did Scott. When he returned from Krakoa island powerless, his ability came back stronger and I believe his ruby quartz glasses/visor had to be readjusted too.
    Last edited by Drey; 08-03-2018 at 06:34 PM.

  9. #28254
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    they got around it by having her fight firelord but as indicated by article, as well as this interview, the Phoenix's power was reduced to that of the level of ororo because the editor wouldnt allow for it. furthermore, they had to compromise with editorial, a female wasnt allowed to beat a cosmic being so it was a draw. additionally the mental blocks imposed on jean occurred after she saved the universe.


    "Claremont’s rationale for the cutback of Jean Grey’s powers was used in X-Men #125 in 1979. Professor Xavier’s colleague, Dr. Moira MacTaggert examined Jean Grey and reached the conclusion that if Jean Grey was once again to reach her full potential, as she did in X-Men #108 while saving the universe, and gain access to the powers that still existed inside her, she could become something akin to a god."


    There were no mental blocks on her when she saved the universe because she had reached her full potential then, which as supported by my initial article and this one she was at the level of ororo.
    This is very interesting about the Jean Grey vs. Firelord thing. In that story, Phoenix Force Jean Grey defeated Firelord with an attack backed by the power of a star. A few issues earlier, we saw Storm throw an backed by the FULL power of a star against a sentinel.

  10. #28255
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    But it lets you know how much misogyny was around then. No female can beat Thor or Silver Surfer? Byrne later pushed for Phoenix’s removal, saying that the team had two powerful women. There can be only one powerful woman or one woman? Fortunately the industry has been forced to address diversity issues in the comics and in terms of employment and is continuing to address these issues.

    Which is also why they need to do what was originally intended. Make Jean a cosmic hero as was originally intended. Have her join the Avengers if need be. She’s worked with the Black Panther and Namor and will appear in Amazing Spider Man with Thor and other Avengers.
    Where did you get that Byrne said this?

  11. #28256
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutog98 View Post
    This is very interesting about the Jean Grey vs. Firelord thing. In that story, Phoenix Force Jean Grey defeated Firelord with an attack backed by the power of a star. A few issues earlier, we saw Storm throw an backed by the FULL power of a star against a sentinel.

    I never caught that until you pointed it out. another instance in canon that supports the interview about Phoenix I posted:





    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  12. #28257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Beast was an Avenger and with the exception of Scott, Claremont promptly got rid of all the Silver Age characters. Maybe they might have gotten upgrades as well, but he wasnt interested in using them when he first started writing
    He did use Beast some. Depends on how much of a power up you consider his transformation in AMAZING ADVENTURES. I don't think it had anything to do with powers concerning Bobby and Warren. Just didn't appear to have much interest in either one. Which leaves Scott who I still maintain Jean was comparable to, powers wise, later in the Silver Age run.

    I see you had the same double post problem I've had recently. Forum seems to be running slow.
    Now I just hit post reply and wait. Takes longer than it used to, but it eventually goes through.

  13. #28258
    Duly appointed enforcer of the Admin Accord Matt's Avatar
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    There is a notion that rather large threads may contribute to server load. As such, we are experimenting with closing existing threads to see if it helps matters.
    Feel free to start a new thread on the same topic.
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