Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[WallStreeter]

Except Beast doesn't lead. He doesn't pay attention to the situation. He is in his own science-world. Look how he was behaving when they went to meet that new mutant.



Not the same at all. A field leader isn't followed because people like him or because of his conviction. People follow him because they have to and because they trust his skills.

But to get people to sign-in for your cause. To risk their live for an ideal, you need wholly different skills. It doesn't matter if you don't have any tactical skill : that's why you have other expert for. What is matter is that you can get people to follow you. To rally around a common cause and fight for it.



We are just not talking about the same kind of leaders

I agree that Jeen (or adult Jean for that matter) will never be the best field leader : for one thing, if having to choose, she will make the "moraly right" choice and not the most tactically sound one. Except in very rare occasion, she will always try to talk first even if that's a mistake.

Jeen hasn't been that concerned about always being morally right, at all. Look at how she uses her telepathic powers. Adult Jean during the Morrison run outsmarted Cassandra Nova and held down the fort when the X-men faced that threat on the field. Even if she is not the best field leader, she was certainly capable enough.

I also think with it's big push of women characters, Marvel is moving away from showing just Cyclops and Wolverine as major leaders. With Wolverine dead we'll see Storm in more of a leadership role and we'll see other characters step up when need be in different circumstances. Any of the long term X-Men can be a leader when they're out with junior X-Men or new recruits for example.

[ariwl1]

Well, given that the only thing that keeps most, if not all, of the X-men going is their memories of Jean Grey.

Welllll that might be a bit of a stretch, but it wouldn't certainly account for the leeway teen Jean is afforded.

Interestingly, when Jean does come up nowadays it's often as means to yank each other's chains (mostly Scott's), like when the secret about Scott's X-Force hit squad got out Storm laughed at him and asked what would Jean think about that.

Then there was this:



Followed by:



And for an extra kick:

[jutcher]

It seems Hank didn't get over that kiss. "oh Jean" lol

[nx01a]

It seems Hank didn't get over that kiss. "oh Jean" lol

Saw that. Still a bit ill.

[joe90]

cast of axis 4

[RedQueen]

Like I'm not the biggest fan of the Hank/Jean thing. BUT. I wouldn't mind if if done right I could get on board on the ship as long as Beast shows none of the negative traits of his older counterpart.

[Narasinha]

cast of axis 4

Ooooh! They finaly stoped listing all the non-Avenger random guys under "X-Men".

[grinningdemon]

Jeen hasn't been that concerned about always being morally right, at all. Look at how she uses her telepathic powers. Adult Jean during the Morrison run outsmarted Cassandra Nova and held down the fort when the X-men faced that threat on the field. Even if she is not the best field leader, she was certainly capable enough.

I also think with it's big push of women characters, Marvel is moving away from showing just Cyclops and Wolverine as major leaders. With Wolverine dead we'll see Storm in more of a leadership role and we'll see other characters step up when need be in different circumstances. Any of the long term X-Men can be a leader when they're out with junior X-Men or new recruits for example.

I can certainly see more female leaders in the present day...but I doubt they're going to take away Cyclops as the leader of the O5...either Jeen is just a placeholder or they will co-lead once Tyke comes back...which will probably add to the tension between them so I could definitely see Bendis doing that.

[grinningdemon]

Like I'm not the biggest fan of the Hank/Jean thing. BUT. I wouldn't mind if if done right I could get on board on the ship as long as Beast shows none of the negative traits of his older counterpart.

I just can't see anyway it could be done well with Jeen getting with any of the other O5...an outsider, maybe, but any of the O5 will just come off as Jeen fighing her destiny or whatever and feel forced like it did when this Beast thing started...she wasn't really interesting in him, she just didn't want to be with Scott and finding out Beast was into her gave her an excuse...it really didn't paint Jeen in a very good light either since she was basically using Beast.

[Narasinha]

I just can't see anyway it could be done well with Jeen getting with any of the other O5...an outsider, maybe, but any of the O5 will just come off as Jeen fighing her destiny or whatever and feel forced like it did when this Beast thing started...she wasn't really interesting in him, she just didn't want to be with Scott and finding out Beast was into her gave her an excuse...it really didn't paint Jeen in a very good light either since she was basically using Beast.

Geh, you folks really want to put sinister intent in everything Bendis write about Jeen.
Maybe she was honest. Maybe she didn't had any second purpose. She had absolutly no idee about how Hank felt about her (and will feel about her). She just realized it from adult Beast's thought and wanted to talk about it with Hank and let him know how much he was counting for her and that she loved him too. It's not because someone kiss you that this person want to automaticaly do it with you and marry you!

We didn't saw Hank reaction after but he wasn't looking that unhappy about it. (Kinda make me think of Penny and Leonard...lol)

(and urgl, the art was really weird in that issue)

[grinningdemon]

Geh, you folks really want to put sinister intent in everything Bendis write about Jeen.
Maybe she was honest. Maybe she didn't had any second purpose. She had absolutly no idee about how Hank felt about her (and will feel about her). She just realized it from adult Beast's thought and wanted to talk about it with Hank and let him know how much he was counting for her and that she loved him too. It's not because someone kiss you that this person want to automaticaly do it with you and marry you!

We didn't saw Hank reaction after but he wasn't looking that unhappy about it. (Kinda make me think of Penny and Leonard...lol)

(and urgl, the art was really weird in that issue)

He's gotten better about it but Bendis was making Jeen look bad a lot in the early issues...abusing her powers and pretty much openly manipulating people...the Beast thing kind of seemed like more of that...especially the way she dropped him the first time he didn't agree with her...plus, it was pretty obvious she was still into Scott.

[Narasinha]

He's gotten better about it but Bendis was making Jeen look bad a lot in the early issues...abusing her powers and pretty much openly manipulating people...

Except for the one time when she changed Angel's mind, most of the rest is mainly what some people wanted to read into the situations. She read people's thoughts a few time, mostly without consciously trying to, but that's about it. We already had that discussion : It was mostly a way for Bendis to show that TP was new to her and that she need to learn to use it and the ethic of it. It was mostly hypocritical because, if you check back old comics, you will see that all TP users did similar things (and often much worse) when they were introduced and sometime, long after they joined the comic. Without even the excuse to be as young and as new to her power as Jeen. Betsy did it, Rachel did it and I don't think we really need to mention Emma or Xavier...

the Beast thing kind of seemed like more of that...especially the way she dropped him the first time he didn't agree with her...plus, it was pretty obvious she was still into Scott.

She didn't "droped him". If you refer to BotA, she felt she was in danger from their future self. She talked about it to Hank and asked him to flee with her. But he just dismissed her concerns so she asked Scott to help her instead.

Sure she was still into Scott. She probably still is. So what ? You can't love several people at the same time ? Or as Jean and Warren put it once : "a deep loving friendship". She didn't asked him to marry her. They didn't even planed to go out together. She kissed him and showed him how much he was counting to her and that she cared about him. Teen Beast probably feel insecure about girls and she showed him that he shouldn't.

PS: Most of the few situations when Jeen read "friends" thoughs were obvious humorous situations and were intended as joke. Like with various guys thinking of her naked, the main author's intent is not the TP but the joke. And, by being a joke, the author clearly show that it shouldn't be taken as something too serious and sinister.

[grinningdemon]

Except for the one time when she changed Angel's mind, most of the rest is mainly what some people wanted to read into the situations. She read people's thoughts a few time, mostly without consciously trying to, but that's about it. We already had that discussion : It was mostly a way for Bendis to show that TP was new to her and that she need to learn to use it and the ethic of it. It was mostly hypocritical because, if you check back old comics, you will see that all TP users did similar things (and often much worse) when they were introduced and sometime, long after they joined the comic. Without even the excuse to be as young and as new to her power as Jeen. Betsy did it, Rachel did it and I don't think we really need to mention Emma or Xavier...

She didn't "droped him". If you refer to BotA, she felt she was in danger from their future self. She talked about it to Hank and asked him to flee with her. But he just dismissed her concerns so she asked Scott to help her instead.

Sure she was still into Scott. She probably still is. So what ? You can't love several people at the same time ? Or as Jean and Warren put it once : "a deep loving friendship". She didn't asked him to marry her. They didn't even planed to go out together. She kissed him and showed him how much he was counting to her and that she cared about him. Teen Beast probably feel insecure about girls and she showed him that he shouldn't.

Relax...it's just my interpretation of the situation but I think Bendis was intentionally trying to make her look a little selfish and bad in those early issues because he really wants to play up that they are teens and are kind of all over the place emotionally...and, like I said, it's gotten better.

Yes, they have shown similar actions with other telepaths in the past but, since Jeen was pretty much the focus of the book, and because the adult version is essentially regarded as a saint, it stood out more here than in many of those other instances.

[Narasinha]

Relax...it's just my interpretation of the situation but I think Bendis was intentionally trying to make her look a little selfish and bad in those early issues because he really wants to play up that they are teens and are kind of all over the place emotionally...and, like I said, it's gotten better.

Yes Bendis wanted to make sure that we got the message that they are teens and not their adult version. That they were lost, frightened, confused, emotional. But I don't think he wanted to make any of them look "bad" or even selfish. (Jeen did what she did mostly for what she think was best for their group)

And as I said, most of the situations when she read friend's thoughts were to make a joke : The food fight during BotA, the one sided conversation between her and Scott with Bobby/Warren sitting in the middle,... You don't write such situations if the intent is to show something that should be taken seriously.

[Narasinha]

Phoenix by Ana Sollamy (ink/mixed media) :