Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[Peanutsinspace]

The Thor comments/confusion come I think from both Claremont and Cockrum's comments regarding Jean as this new Phoenix character. Here are both of their thoughts:

Claremont
“Phoenix is actually Marvel Girl at her ultimate extent,” Chris Claremont explained to The Comics Journal. “Phoenix in X-Men #108 (1977), when she saved the universe, was Jean Grey achieving her fullest potential as an entity.”

“Our intent was to create an X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor – someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero,” Claremont revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “We thought at the time that we could integrate her into the book as well as Thor had been integrated into the Avengers. The problem with that is that it grew out of the synthesis between Dave and me. The fact that we had, in a sense, created her gave me a degree of involvement that (artist John Byrne) didn’t have, coming in seven issues later.”

Cockrum
“When we first introduced Phoenix, we wanted her to fight Thor or the Silver Surfer, but (new Editor-In-Chief) Jim Shooter wouldn’t allow it,” Cockrum told Comic Creators On X-Men. “He said no female is going to beat Thor or the Silver Surfer. We kind of sneaked around him by sending her up against Firelord, who had once fought Thor to a standstill. We established her power levels that way.”


Cosmic or not


Cockrum
“Actually, when we introduced Phoenix I don’t think we intended for her to keep super cosmic powers, because the rest of the group becomes superfluous then,” Cockrum told The X-Men Companion. “Chris had said something about using the power to save the universe in X-Men #108 (in 1977), but that wiped it to such a degree that it reduced her powers. And after that, theoretically, she was not supposed to be that super-cosmic person.”



Claremont
“So anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic,” Claremont said in The Comics Journal. “And when the editor passes down an edict, you’re stuck with it. We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine. Now I had to think of a rationale.”

“The potential to become Phoenix is still within Jean. But without the necessary increase in her awareness, in her perception. If her consciousness, her soul, whatever, is not enlightened – if her consciousness is not cosmic, then she can’t handle the power. It’s like Doctor Strange could not become the Sorcerer Supreme until he had achieved a certain psychic and emotional balance, or awareness. Neither can Jean. She’ll burn herself out, she’ll be warped, twisted, turned into an evil person. Ergo, what happened was her mind shut her down, as a safety mechanism. To prevent her from hurting herself, it just dropped a wall down.”


http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...ad-to-die.html

[Wiccan]

/\ Thanks for posting.

Honestly though, the Phoenix has already been established as something completely different from what was intended at first and Jean has also become a Omega Level mutant by herself. Knowing what the writers were thinking when they first created/wrote something is cool, but... It doesn't say anything about what's the current canon.

[butterflykyss]

The Thor comments/confusion come I think from both Claremont and Cockrum's comments regarding Jean as this new Phoenix character. Here are both of their thoughts:

Claremont
“Phoenix is actually Marvel Girl at her ultimate extent,” Chris Claremont explained to The Comics Journal. “Phoenix in X-Men #108 (1977), when she saved the universe, was Jean Grey achieving her fullest potential as an entity.”

“Our intent was to create an X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor – someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero,” Claremont revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “We thought at the time that we could integrate her into the book as well as Thor had been integrated into the Avengers. The problem with that is that it grew out of the synthesis between Dave and me. The fact that we had, in a sense, created her gave me a degree of involvement that (artist John Byrne) didn’t have, coming in seven issues later.”

Cockrum
“When we first introduced Phoenix, we wanted her to fight Thor or the Silver Surfer, but (new Editor-In-Chief) Jim Shooter wouldn’t allow it,” Cockrum told Comic Creators On X-Men. “He said no female is going to beat Thor or the Silver Surfer. We kind of sneaked around him by sending her up against Firelord, who had once fought Thor to a standstill. We established her power levels that way.”


Cosmic or not


Cockrum
“Actually, when we introduced Phoenix I don’t think we intended for her to keep super cosmic powers, because the rest of the group becomes superfluous then,” Cockrum told The X-Men Companion. “Chris had said something about using the power to save the universe in X-Men #108 (in 1977), but that wiped it to such a degree that it reduced her powers. And after that, theoretically, she was not supposed to be that super-cosmic person.”



Claremont
“So anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic,” Claremont said in The Comics Journal. “And when the editor passes down an edict, you’re stuck with it. We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine. Now I had to think of a rationale.”

“The potential to become Phoenix is still within Jean. But without the necessary increase in her awareness, in her perception. If her consciousness, her soul, whatever, is not enlightened – if her consciousness is not cosmic, then she can’t handle the power. It’s like Doctor Strange could not become the Sorcerer Supreme until he had achieved a certain psychic and emotional balance, or awareness. Neither can Jean. She’ll burn herself out, she’ll be warped, twisted, turned into an evil person. Ergo, what happened was her mind shut her down, as a safety mechanism. To prevent her from hurting herself, it just dropped a wall down.”


http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...ad-to-die.html

oh this was a great read and find. thank you this does support my article and does clarify where the confusion was. they intended for Phoenix to be at thors/silver surfer level but they ended up putting her around Storm's level. thank you which is all I ever said was that Phoenix saving universe Jean was at a power level equivalent to Ororo.

[mike7171]

The Thor comments/confusion come I think from both Claremont and Cockrum's comments regarding Jean as this new Phoenix character. Here are both of their thoughts:

Claremont
“Phoenix is actually Marvel Girl at her ultimate extent,” Chris Claremont explained to The Comics Journal. “Phoenix in X-Men #108 (1977), when she saved the universe, was Jean Grey achieving her fullest potential as an entity.”

“Our intent was to create an X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor – someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero,” Claremont revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “We thought at the time that we could integrate her into the book as well as Thor had been integrated into the Avengers. The problem with that is that it grew out of the synthesis between Dave and me. The fact that we had, in a sense, created her gave me a degree of involvement that (artist John Byrne) didn’t have, coming in seven issues later.”

Cockrum
“When we first introduced Phoenix, we wanted her to fight Thor or the Silver Surfer, but (new Editor-In-Chief) Jim Shooter wouldn’t allow it,” Cockrum told Comic Creators On X-Men. “He said no female is going to beat Thor or the Silver Surfer. We kind of sneaked around him by sending her up against Firelord, who had once fought Thor to a standstill. We established her power levels that way.”


Cosmic or not


Cockrum
“Actually, when we introduced Phoenix I don’t think we intended for her to keep super cosmic powers, because the rest of the group becomes superfluous then,” Cockrum told The X-Men Companion. “Chris had said something about using the power to save the universe in X-Men #108 (in 1977), but that wiped it to such a degree that it reduced her powers. And after that, theoretically, she was not supposed to be that super-cosmic person.”



Claremont
“So anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic,” Claremont said in The Comics Journal. “And when the editor passes down an edict, you’re stuck with it. We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine. Now I had to think of a rationale.”

“The potential to become Phoenix is still within Jean. But without the necessary increase in her awareness, in her perception. If her consciousness, her soul, whatever, is not enlightened – if her consciousness is not cosmic, then she can’t handle the power. It’s like Doctor Strange could not become the Sorcerer Supreme until he had achieved a certain psychic and emotional balance, or awareness. Neither can Jean. She’ll burn herself out, she’ll be warped, twisted, turned into an evil person. Ergo, what happened was her mind shut her down, as a safety mechanism. To prevent her from hurting herself, it just dropped a wall down.”


http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...ad-to-die.html

I agree this is a good read.

[WallStreeter]

/\ Thanks for posting.

Honestly though, the Phoenix has already been established as something completely different from what was intended at first and Jean has also become a Omega Level mutant by herself. Knowing what the writers were thinking when they first created/wrote something is cool, but... It doesn't say anything about what's the current canon.

But it lets you know how much misogyny was around then. No female can beat Thor or Silver Surfer? Byrne later pushed for Phoenix’s removal, saying that the team had two powerful women. There can be only one powerful woman or one woman? Fortunately the industry has been forced to address diversity issues in the comics and in terms of employment and is continuing to address these issues.

Which is also why they need to do what was originally intended. Make Jean a cosmic hero as was originally intended. Have her join the Avengers if need be. She’s worked with the Black Panther and Namor and will appear in Amazing Spider Man with Thor and other Avengers.

[Wiccan]

But it lets you know how much misogyny was around then. No female can beat Thor or Silver Surfer? Byrne later pushed for Phoenix’s removal, saying that the team had two powerful women. There can be only one powerful woman or one woman? Fortunately the industry has been forced to address diversity issues in the comics and in terms of employment and is continuing to address these issues.

Which is also why they need to do what was originally intended. Make Jean a cosmic hero as was originally intended. Have her join the Avengers if need be. She’s worked with the Black Panther and Namor and will appear in Amazing Spider Man with Thor and other Avengers.

Yeah, one of the reasons I wish Jean could be Phoenix was the possibility of her as a cosmic character, like on the Generations issue, where she's fighting Galactus and all.

And yeah I'm a bit iffy about Byrne... I think he also said he didn't draw Jean on the corner box cause he felt she shouldn't really part of the team... And the whole thing about him making Phoenix kill a living planet instead of an empty one, which is what ended up causing Jean's death... I always wonder what would have happened to Jean if it wasn't for that. Her death on DPS is what made that story so iconic, but... I wonder if it wouldn't be better for her character if we got the original version where she just gets depowered...

It's not really that great of a thing for her character and much weaker as a story... But considering they wanted her on X-Factor so bad that they bothered to undo her death and created that whole retcon... I think that finding a way for her to get her powers back would be like, no problem in comparison.

[johnnysv75]

oh this was a great read and find. thank you this does support my article and does clarify where the confusion was. they intended for Phoenix to be at thors/silver surfer level but they ended up putting her around Storm's level. thank you which is all I ever said was that Phoenix saving universe Jean was at a power level equivalent to Ororo.

That’s not really what they said, though. At least not the way I interpreted it.
They showed that she was at Thor’s level by having her beat someone who had fought Thor to a stand still. So they worked their way around the editor’s.
After she saved the universe she put fail safes into her brain and ended up at Ororo’s level. When she saved the universe she was more powerful than Ororo.

Edit: Both Jean and Ororo have evolved a lot since the late 70s. I think Ororo at her ultimate potential is stronger than Jean at her ultimate potential. (And I love Jean, with all my heart.)
For me the top 3 most powerful X-Men will always be:
Storm
Jean
Polaris
~~ Below them, I guess it depends on the story and the writer, but for me, these three will always be the most powerful.

[Gortam]

Still hope some day we´ll get a new twist to the story. Where Jean and Phoenix are one and the same. God and avatar. Idea and flesh.

Or something like that.

[butterflykyss]

That’s not really what they said, though. At least not the way I interpreted it.
They showed that she was at Thor’s level by having her beat someone who had fought Thor to a stand still. So they worked their way around the editor’s.
After she saved the universe she put fail safes into her brain and ended up at Ororo’s level. When she saved the universe she was more powerful than Ororo.

they got around it by having her fight firelord but as indicated by article, as well as this interview, the Phoenix's power was reduced to that of the level of ororo because the editor wouldnt allow for it. furthermore, they had to compromise with editorial, a female wasnt allowed to beat a cosmic being so it was a draw. additionally the mental blocks imposed on jean occurred after she saved the universe.


"Claremont’s rationale for the cutback of Jean Grey’s powers was used in X-Men #125 in 1979. Professor Xavier’s colleague, Dr. Moira MacTaggert examined Jean Grey and reached the conclusion that if Jean Grey was once again to reach her full potential, as she did in X-Men #108 while saving the universe, and gain access to the powers that still existed inside her, she could become something akin to a god."


There were no mental blocks on her when she saved the universe because she had reached her full potential then, which as supported by my initial article and this one she was at the level of ororo.

[johnnysv75]

Still hope some day we´ll get a new twist to the story. Where Jean and Phoenix are one and the same. God and avatar. Idea and flesh.

Or something like that.

That would be great!!! I posted this a while ago in this thread:

Imagine if Phoenix was really Jean’s true potential. A being of pure psionic energy - cosmic energy even, thanks to Jean’s ultimate pontential. Some time in the future, Jean embraces her potential and becomes the Phoenix all by herself. That energy is still there when Jean’s body one day dies. The years pass and the Phoenix evolves into an independent cosmic force, not really knowing it once was Jean Grey. For some reason it travels back in time, and we get those silly stories from Excalibur.

I know it gets complicated, having it reaching out to Jean Grey in the space shuttle when in fact it once was Jean Grey herself. But I don’t think it’s more complicated or strange than some of the silly Phoenix force stories we have seen. :-)

[WallStreeter]

That’s not really what they said, though. At least not the way I interpreted it.
They showed that she was at Thor’s level by having her beat someone who had fought Thor to a stand still. So they worked their way around the editor’s.
After she saved the universe she put fail safes into her brain and ended up at Ororo’s level. When she saved the universe she was more powerful than Ororo.

Edit: Both Jean and Ororo have evolved a lot since the late 70s. I think Ororo at her ultimate potential is stronger than Jean at her ultimate potential. (And I love Jean, with all my heart.)
For me the top 3 most powerful X-Men will always be:
Storm
Jean
Polaris
~~ Below them, I guess it depends on the story and the writer, but for me, these three will always be the most powerful.

Jean at her full potential is White Phoenix of the crown. She is the prime host of the Phoenix. Storm just defeated a major demon/evil god due to the faith people in Wakanda have in her. If she got more followers she would have more power. It maybe one reason why Thor wins so much is the faith people have in him.

[butterflykyss]

That’s not really what they said, though. At least not the way I interpreted it.
They showed that she was at Thor’s level by having her beat someone who had fought Thor to a stand still. So they worked their way around the editor’s.
After she saved the universe she put fail safes into her brain and ended up at Ororo’s level. When she saved the universe she was more powerful than Ororo.

Edit: Both Jean and Ororo have evolved a lot since the late 70s. I think Ororo at her ultimate potential is stronger than Jean at her ultimate potential. (And I love Jean, with all my heart.)
For me the top 3 most powerful X-Men will always be:
Storm
Jean
Polaris
~~ Below them, I guess it depends on the story and the writer, but for me, these three will always be the most powerful.

I think in terms of power jean will probably be conceived as the most powerful of the characters you mentioned but that is primarily due to the Phoenix. That said, Jean without Phoenix doesnt have nearly as impressive the feats that Ororo has. Ororo recently has been announced as being an actual goddess and defeated a universal threat. This is why I keep saying I think its great marvel is allowing readers to see what Jean do without the Phoenix. So with that I would agree with you list if we are talking Jean withiut Phoenix then yes Ororo would be more powerful but the general perception is that she has Phoenix, which if that is the case Jean would be on top of that list. So it depends what Jean we are referencing.

[johnnysv75]

There were no mental blocks on her when she saved the universe because she had reached her full potential then, which as supported by my initial article and this one she was at the level of ororo.

Yeah, I know. The mental blocks are added afterwards. And I think that Jean/Phoenix with the mental blocks (after she has saved the universe) is the Ororo level hero that Claremont talks about. Ororo and Jean seem to be at the same level in the stories after Jean has put fail safes in her own mind. Before she turns into Dark Phoenix.
Ororo was powerful back then, but I don’t think Claremont had started to truly explore her potential. He was too busy with Jean. :-) He started exploring Ororo’s power levels a lot more when Jean wasn’t around anymore. (And as I wrote in my edited post above, nowadays I think Ororo’s ultimate potential is greater than Jean’s.)

[butterflykyss]

Yeah, I know. The mental blocks are added afterwards. And I think that Jean/Phoenix with the mental blocks (after she has saved the universe) is the Ororo level hero that Claremont talks about. Ororo and Jean seem to be at the same level in the stories after Jean has put fail safes in her own mind. Before she turns into Dark Phoenix.
Ororo was powerful back then, but I don’t think Claremont had started to truly explore her potential. He was too busy with Jean. :-) He started exploring Ororo’s power levels a lot more when Jean wasn’t around anymore. (And as I wrote in my edited post above, nowadays I think Ororo’s ultimate potential is greater than Jean’s.)

I agree with the point they were at the same level before dark Phoenix. I just think were we disagree is if she was the level of Ororo when she saved the universe. I am inclined to believe the article that I originally posted which indicates they were at equivalent levels when she saved the universe. I also agree with your point about Claremont point.. why do you think her potential is higher than Jean's just curious?

[johnnysv75]

This is why I keep saying I think its great marvel is allowing readers to see what Jean do without the Phoenix.

I love the original Phoenix saga, but I hate the Phoenix force with a passion, so I am also happy that Phoenix is gone from Jean’s life (for now - we know it won’t last). I hate the way they brought Jean back in 1986. And I actually think it had more to do with sexism than the fact that they didn’t think readers would accept Jean now that she had killed a planet. I think the same culture that said that a woman couldn’t be as powerful as Thor simply couldn’t accept that a woman could have become as powerful as Jean was as Dark Phoenix. Maybe it wasn’t said aloud, but I think it was easier for them to accept that it was this separate cosmic entity and not Jean herself. If Jean had been a man, she would have been resurrected in an entirely different way, I am sure of it.
(And yes, I am just speculating.)