Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[spirit2011]

And here I thought Proenix Ressurrection was too soft on Cyclops (and it was)

[Disciple of Redd]

It's pretty easy to blame the woman for a guy's actions. That's one of the oldest go-tos in literary history (perhaps the oldest?)

All the more reason to keep Jean away from him (on top of reasons like: the pursuit of new stories, the nurturing of popular female characters, keeping continuity, pushing the franchise forward, etc)

[JeisonWolf]

Relationships and feelings about them are probably the most common things things that get retconned in Marvel - maybe even ahead of what the Phoenix really is. When writers and what they prefer change, how things were portrayed also change.

Did Scott always have Jean first in his heart or did he prefer Emma? That will be decided by whoever writes him next, irrespective of what has been on panel (both answers are on panel anyways) and any debates we have here mean less than nothing.

How Jean feels can just as easily change with the writer as well. Does she forgive him, blame herself, be angry at him but with a path back, or hate him and feel what he did is worse than what anyone else ever tried to do to her (including every act by every villain combined) - well, that also depends on what the next writer decides, even if it goes against what we have seen on panel already.

We readers just have to deal with it.

you have said a great truth.

Scott said and showed in many ways that he loved Jean with all his heart, they had a long history, lived many things and were married for a long time (10 years or more while raising Cable) - Morrison said it was a teenage love. Other writers later said that Emma was the great love of her life but now other writers have said again that he never stopped loving Jean and she was always the only one in his heart.

Jean said and showed that she only loved Scott- Tom Taylor has said that she also loved Wolverin in the same way.

writers write what they want even if that often contradicts what was previously said. So at what point canon is canon and the characters are really guilty?

[PwrdOn]

Well just like Dubya said, fool me twice, can't get fooled again. There seems to be a recurring theme with Scott's character where all of his poor decisions need some lazy in-story justification to make it all somebody else's fault, whether that be in Inferno, HCT, AvX, or what have you. And I think this speaks to the writers and editors wanting to have it both ways with him. On one hand, they want him to be edgy and badass and do things like sleep around and run secret hit squads because that's what's macho and alpha and what not, but on the other hand they still want him to be the boy scout who never makes mistakes and always does the right thing, and it goes without saying that these are fundamentally irreconcilable. If they bring him back, they need to avoid trying to write him this way again to appeal to that "Rightclops" crowd, since they will inevitably paint themselves into a corner and need to come up with yet another absurd escape to rescue his character.

[JeisonWolf]

You know every one or two week Scott is mentioned in Jean's forum and the disputes begin, mainly because thanks to Morrison some have the idea that Scott was a garbage as a husband and in some way made Jean not relevant. the same happens in Scott's forum, Jean is mentioned and there are some who say that she was a horrible wife because she loved Logan despite being with Scott besides having some kisses with Logan (yes that is also cheating), She didn't let him be as great as he was thanks to Emma and other nonsense.
Now I say, do you know why it is impossible to talk about Jean without mentioning Scott or talking about Scott without mentioning Jean? simple, both are important parts in the life of the other and always will be. Jean made Scott a great hero and more interesting than he was at the beginning, Scott was there at the most important moments of Jean's life and was always supporting and helping her, in addition to giving her more calm and control of herself, there is a what if? where Jean cheats on Scott with Logan and therefore they break, then everything happens about Dark Phoenix and Jean when she doesn't have with Logan the same connection that she had with Scott, besides that Logan is far from being a quiet person to balance her and help Jean to master his powers and control them, she loses control and destroys all universe by being dominated by Dark Phoenix.

Scott and Jean are great separated but together they are much better a great example of this is all that happened during the time in which Jean has been dead, if she lived things would be very different. I don't understand why there are problems with Scott coming back.
First that doesn't mean that they are back together immediately.
second even if they did that doesn't mean that Scott is going to outshine Jean. Scott has eclipsed many characters but in general he has always been the main character of the X-men but I never saw it like that for Jean, rather his relationship made me see that Scott was so great thanks to her and she was far away to be a simple love interest as many other heroes have that don't contribute much to the plot. In other words, Scott has achieved great things thanks to Jean, for which she deserves as much merit as he does.
third Scott and Jean can be leaders at the same time, many love that Jean was director in new X-men, so Jean can be a leader more destined to diplomacy and help others, while Scott can be a more military and tactical leader, both can be leaders at the same time, each taking a different role, they would form a great team and both would be main characters as they have always been and that really wouldn't be affected because they are lovers/a couple/ married or just friends.

[Disciple of Redd]

It's impossible to talk about Jean without bringing up Scott because she, until very recently, was not getting ANY new story content because of how that editorial pet character is viewed.

Having been killed off for 14 years as part of an ongoing (unending?) series of self-pitying "everyone fails Cyclops when he needs them" stories, it only makes sense to allow Jean Grey to be explored away from that toxic mess.

Not only does it makes sense for people that are interested in Jean Grey, but it makes sense artistically to not repeat the same stories that were already done, especially when a decade's worth of canon essentially said Jean Grey had to f*ck off because "Whineclops is doing an edgy right now, you can exist when it's time to be his girlfriend again".

Gross.

I'm not sure which is worse to still be around in 2018: Jott or Kitty/Colossus.

[TheCape]

There's a huge amount of selective evidence at work here, mostly Morrison (a man with a clear agenda) and those who came after, trying make sense of what he wrote. Regardless, cherry picking panels from 50+ years of continuity could "prove" just about any theory one can think of. As with all serialized fiction, consistency will always be a problems. Taken on the balance of the stories as a whole, there's no doubt that Jott was the more enduring relationship, and the one which IMO supported the most moral and heroic versions of both characters. That said I thoroughly enjoyed most of their appearances and remain an ardent fan of both characters.

However, there remains a huge elephant in the room around this whole topic, and that's HTC. HTC remains one of the worst agency crimes ever committed by an X-Men writer on an A-list character. Scott's life was completely hijacked by that decision and remains so to this day. What's just as bad IMO is that Jean was one who perpetrated the entire fiasco. I can't imagine a situation where Scott would willingly want that to be done to him, or Jean would choose to do that to him. Obviously Morrison couldn't either, which was why he had to hand wave the entire situation to get the outcome he wanted. He couldn't find a reasonable emotion basis for the outcome, so he wrote it as Jean's only solution to a crisis, which I find laughable. For those of us who remain fans of Scott and Jean together, this will never sit well because it simply was never earned. Even for those not a fan of the pairing, I think HCT was a crime against both characters individually as well. To say that what Jean did was the only option to resolve future problems is ridiculous.

The fortunate part of all this is that HCT has essentially been buried. No one was aware of it other than Jean, and likely in her case only as the Phoenix. The unfortunate part in all this is that the truth of what really happened will likely never see the light of day. The impact of this decision is too wide spread for editorially to easily fix, even if they wanted to. Many Scott fans would rather forget about it because it means our favorite mutant had one of the most important decisions of his life, made without his knowledge and taints everything that came after. For Jean fans I can't think that acknowledging this would sit well either because it's simply the worst kind of violation of a characters free will, which Jean as a telepath would likely abhor and rightly consider an outright immoral act.

Regardless it did happen, just like Scott walking out on Maddie, Inferno, the affair and everything else sordid that's been on panel happened. You simply can't discount this event and lay the consequences of this decision entirely at Scott's feet. I can see how it would be convenient to do so, but that's not what happened. For those who disagree with my interpretation of HCT, well, we've been down that road before. I have no interest in debating the matter. I think the panels themselves and the follow up explanations from Marvel editorial are very clear on what happened, so anything further I say isn't going to convince anyone. Luckily, Marvel did ultimately correct this injustice by dissolving Emma and Scott's relationship, which made sense since it was never solidly founded to begin with. Despite that, even Jean and Scott's last moments together in PR didn't do Scott much justice since it made him appear very duplicitous during his relationship with Emma. It follows with the logic that Scott was only with her because Jean pushed him that way, but damn, this guy keeps paying for that story over and over.

This is true and is kind of terrifying, the violation of Scott person and then making out over his death wife grave is just ughh, and frankly i never liked the narrative that she has to do it in order to save mutankind, it set the franchise into a direction that IMO was pretty unapealling.

[Peanutsinspace]

God, I am so freaking glad none of you people write for Marvel. Your collective bitterness is exhausting.

[TheCape]

God, I am so freaking glad none of you people write for Marvel. Your collective bitterness is exhausting.

Lol that is true, personally i don't hold anything against fictional characthers for this same reason, is just an unhealthy mindset.

[Peanutsinspace]

Lol that is true, personally i don't hold anything against fictional characthers for this same reason, is just an unhealthy mindset.

All I imagine is all of them sitting around a table clucking like angry chickens.

All I'll say is everyone knows what Marvel is going to do when Scott comes back. Be prepared for them to tease Jott. It's going to happen because it sells.

[TheCape]

All I imagine is all of them sitting around a table clucking like angry chickens.

All I'll say is everyone knows what Marvel is going to do when Scott comes back. Be prepared for them to tease Jott. It's going to happen because it sells.

Well that and because is THE X-Men couple, not other romance in the franchise has the same amount of importance than this, is just both sides could let the pettiness go

[Peanutsinspace]

Well that and because is THE X-Men couple, not other romance in the franchise has the same amount of importance than this, is just both sides could let the pettiness go

Yup. That too. Marvel isn't stupid, they know how big Jott was/is. They're releasing the wedding as a tbp so I don't get all the hate and vehement denial.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

It was only as big as it was greatly because Marvel just would not allow any other X-couple to last and become comparable, and that it became a thing that writers weren't allowed to touch, it's like a tv show telling us about a newstory that they say just won't go away, but only because said show won't let it...

[Soulsword323]

Jott will always be my favorite couple when it comes to comics, but I can't fault people who are disappointed by the idea of their potential return. Jean has hardly been back, and I think a lot of us would like to see her to continue her growth without going back to the status quo. Marvel doesn't always do relationships well, but I think for the most part, Jean and Scott were able to get developed as individual characters, who happened to be in a romance with one another. For me, the problem with them isn't so much when they were together, but what happened to break them apart. Scott and Emma, and the era that followed their romance, did a lot to sour my perception of Jott, and Cyclops as a character. He was given a prime opportunity with Jean's death to develop as a character (an arc that took him from what he was to the revolutionist he became), while getting to explore another romantic relationship. With Jean's return, I'd like to see her get that same opportunity before they find their way back to one another. That's if he is coming back at all.

[spirit2011]

It's impossible to talk about Jean without bringing up Scott because she, until very recently, was not getting ANY new story content because of how that editorial pet character is viewed.

Having been killed off for 14 years as part of an ongoing (unending?) series of self-pitying "everyone fails Cyclops when he needs them" stories, it only makes sense to allow Jean Grey to be explored away from that toxic mess.

Not only does it makes sense for people that are interested in Jean Grey, but it makes sense artistically to not repeat the same stories that were already done, especially when a decade's worth of canon essentially said Jean Grey had to f*ck off because "Whineclops is doing an edgy right now, you can exist when it's time to be his girlfriend again".

Gross.

I'm not sure which is worse to still be around in 2018: Jott or Kitty/Colossus.

Quesada basically said that, in other words sure. Jean death all this times is boiled down to Scott not needing her as girlfriend.

Kitty and Colossus is bad, but it was Guggs being nostalgic because they were definately already over many years ago. At least editorial stopped the wedding.

Jott is really worrying, since it is far away from the feminist narrative jean deserves

All I imagine is all of them sitting around a table clucking like angry chickens.

All I'll say is everyone knows what Marvel is going to do when Scott comes back. Be prepared for them to tease Jott. It's going to happen because it sells.

Sure it sells so much Marvel decide to craop on it to promote another couple.

It is pure fan nostalgia, nothing more