Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[Wiccan]

Hairsplitting which leaves the gist of the retcon intact: the Phoenix Force and Jean are separate beings, absolving Jean of the D'Bari genocide.

How hard is this? Jean can't have committed genocide and still be a hero. That much blood doesn't wash off. Ever.

Of course Jean and Phoenix are separate entities. No one is arguing against that. The problem is the whole "The Jean on Claremont's run wasn't actually Jean it was just Phoenix pretending to be her" shit, which was a stupid af retcon.

[FUBAR007]

Canon changes. Seemed to me that Morrison wrote her as being Phoenix. Had characters talk like that was the case. I read ENDSONG, same thing. The last issue pretty much says they were the same. I haven't read to know since then. Just what I see on forums. But the 80s and 90s overwhelmingly say Jean was not Phoenix.

Even now, Rosenberg and Taylor have both made it clear Jean and Phoenix are separate beings and that, perhaps more importantly, Jean doesn't want to have anything to do with Phoenix anymore.

Writers glossing over details doesn't constitute retconning. Characters seemingly ignoring or contradicting such details in dialogue doesn't constitute retconning.

[WallStreeter]

Even now, Rosenberg and Taylor have both made it clear Jean and Phoenix are separate beings and that, perhaps more importantly, Jean doesn't want to have anything to do with Phoenix anymore.

Writers glossing over details doesn't constitute retconning. Characters seemingly ignoring or contradicting such details in dialogue doesn't constitute retconning.

That is true and people should focus more on the present. Presently, Jean sent the Phoenix away. We know the Phoenix said Jean as Phoenix is unaparalled, so she is the most powerful Phoenix host but we saw Jean vaniquish the Phoenix. For now Taylor is focusing on what Jean can do her own. I want to see her kick Cassandra Nova's butt without the Phoenix, and having a few high profile victories. I don't think Jean not being Phoenix will last (upcoming Dark Phoenix movie, Disney just bought Fox) but in the meantime we can see Adult Jean show us what she's capable of doing without it. Jeen has taken down baby Xavier, the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, brought herself back from the dead and killed the Poisons, and made the Phoenix resurrect her). So it will be nice to see what Adult Jean can do.

[FUBAR007]

Of course Jean and Phoenix are separate entities. No one is arguing against that.

That's exactly what they're arguing.

The problem is the whole "The Jean on Claremont's run wasn't actually Jean it was just Phoenix pretending to be her" shit, which was a stupid af retcon.

I agree the retcon was clunky, overcomplicated, and detrimental to the original story. IMO, Marvel should've just revealed that Madelyne was an amnesiac Jean and gone with Byrne's original idea that the Phoenix was an entity that had possessed and controlled Jean. That way, it would've been Jean who lived through the Dark Phoenix Saga, but responsibility for Dark Phoenix's crimes would still belong to the Phoenix, not her.

That, or they should've left Jean dead.

[WallStreeter]

That's exactly what they're arguing.



I agree the retcon was clunky, overcomplicated, and detrimental to the original story. IMO, Marvel should've just revealed that Madelyne was an amnesiac Jean and gone with Byrne's original idea that the Phoenix was an entity that had possessed and controlled Jean. That way, it would've been Jean who lived through the Dark Phoenix Saga, but responsibility for Dark Phoenix's crimes would still belong to the Phoenix, not her.

That, or they should've left Jean dead.

Why bother arguing over stories that are 32 years old? What's done is done.

[TheCape]

Why bother arguing over stories that are 32 years old? What's done is done.

Some of us (and i'm including myself in that group) has problems letting certain things go

[5cents]

Guys please do not bombard Guggenheim’s twitter. Vent your frustrations here and leave it at that. I don’t agree with it but this is how he sees Jean’s and Rachel’s relationship at the moment.

[FUBAR007]

That is true and people should focus more on the present. Presently, Jean sent the Phoenix away. We know the Phoenix said Jean as Phoenix is unaparalled, so she is the most powerful Phoenix host but we saw Jean vaniquish the Phoenix. For now Taylor is focusing on what Jean can do her own. I want to see her kick Cassandra Nova's butt without the Phoenix, and having a few high profile victories. I don't think Jean not being Phoenix will last (upcoming Dark Phoenix movie, Disney just bought Fox) but in the meantime we can see Adult Jean show us what she's capable of doing without it. Jeen has taken down baby Xavier, the Shi'ar Imperial Guard, brought herself back from the dead and killed the Poisons, and made the Phoenix resurrect her). So it will be nice to see what Adult Jean can do.

Oh God, yes. I find Jean far more interesting without all the Phoenix baggage. Marvel and the writers keep bringing it back every decade or so because everyone wants to do their take on the concept and riff on the Dark Phoenix Saga. IMO, Claremont and Byrne said everything that needed to be said there the first time around. If they want to keep playing with it, they should attach the Phoenix to a new character and move forward from there.

[FUBAR007]

Why bother arguing over stories that are 32 years old? What's done is done.

Are you new to comics fandom?

[Devaishwarya]

Oh God, yes. I find Jean far more interesting without all the Phoenix baggage. Marvel and the writers keep bringing it back every decade or so because everyone wants to do their take on the concept and riff on the Dark Phoenix Saga. IMO, Claremont and Byrne said everything that needed to be said there the first time around. If they want to keep playing with it, they should attach the Phoenix to a new character and move forward from there.

I agree completely.

Not that I would care to read yet another Return of the Phoenix...but t's not as though they haven't had the Phoenix attach itself to just about anybody who even looks at it with a "wink and a smile".

They can do whatever-the-hell they want with it from here on out, just keep it away from Jean.

[Devaishwarya]

Post-times-two

[FUBAR007]

Guys please do not bombard Guggenheim’s twitter. Vent your frustrations here and leave it at that. I don’t agree with it but this is how he sees Jean’s and Rachel’s relationship at the moment.

I haven't read the story yet. Question: what is the context of Jean's statement?

Is Rachel reaching out to Jean and Jean snapping back at her? If so, that is out of character. Jean and Rachel reconciled way back in the early 90s, specifically in Excalibur vol. 1 #71.

Or, is Jean referring to the fact that Rachel is from an alternate timeline and that Rachel is the daughter of that timeline's Jean Grey, not hers (i.e. 616-Jean's)? Technically, 616-Jean has no children. Rachel is from a parallel Earth. So is Nate Grey. While Jean raised Cable, he is Madelyne's son.

[ClanAskani]

Guys please do not bombard Guggenheim’s twitter. Vent your frustrations here and leave it at that. I don’t agree with it but this is how he sees Jean’s and Rachel’s relationship at the moment.

Why not? I talked to Guggenheim a few weeks ago at a signing. He said he's afraid of this forum and avoids it. He thinks we all all hate him but everyone on Twitter loves everything about Gold. He said he's been surprised about how positive everyone has been about his run because he's in his little bubble on Twitter.

I haven't read the story yet. Question: what is the context of Jean's statement?

Is Rachel reaching out to Jean and Jean snapping back at her? If so, that is out of character. Jean and Rachel reconciled way back in the early 90s, specifically in Excalibur vol. 1 #71.

Or, is Jean referring to the fact that Rachel is from an alternate timeline and that Rachel is the daughter of that timeline's Jean Grey, not hers (i.e. 616-Jean's)? Technically, 616-Jean has no children. Rachel is from a parallel Earth. So is Nate Grey. While Jean raised Cable, he is Madelyne's son.

The problem is Jean already accepted Rachel. That conflict is over with and Rachel calling Jean "mom" isn't something she should get bitchy about.

Maybe it's true she isn't Rachel's mom, but Jean would understand how hurtful it would be to Rachel to say that. It just makes Jean seem incredibly hurt and mean-spirited and ignores so much continuity to resolve that entire issue. It was a huge step for Jean to let Rachel called her "mom" in Excalibur 71.

I just don't know how that line slipped by editorial. Guggenheim may not know what was in the Red Annual, likely someone else made revisions to the Gold wedding issue adding the cute character interaction. But the editor on Gold should have caught that.

[Devaishwarya]

Why not? I talked to Guggenheim a few weeks ago at a signing. He said he's afraid of this forum and avoids it. He thinks we all all hate him but everyone on Twitter loves everything about Gold. He said he's been surprised about how positive everyone has been about his run because he's in his little bubble on Twitter.

LOL. That explains quite a lot.
He's clearly just as delusional about everything as the characters he's writing.

[Wiccan]

That's exactly what they're arguing.

I don't think it is. By "Original Phoenix" he probably meant the original Jean/Phoenix character from Claremont's run. The discussion started because of the X-Men Grand Design issue, that was focused on those times...

I agree the retcon was clunky, overcomplicated, and detrimental to the original story. IMO, Marvel should've just revealed that Madelyne was an amnesiac Jean and gone with Byrne's original idea that the Phoenix was an entity that had possessed and controlled Jean. That way, it would've been Jean who lived through the Dark Phoenix Saga, but responsibility for Dark Phoenix's crimes would still belong to the Phoenix, not her.

That's pretty much how the whole thing is seem today, and I don't think it's completely inaccurate. Yeah the retcon wasn't undone, but neither was what Claremont established. The thing that the Phoenix had a part of Jean's soul was acknowledged on X-Factor later when Maddie died. Yeah the position of editorial at the time was still that it wasn't Jean, but I feel like it was because they couldn't properly distinguish the idea of Phoenix being a separate entity from the messy part of the retcon where it wasn't even Jean for the whole Claremont run.

But now Dark Phoenix and stuff is always mentioned as being Jean, we even had the Generations issue with Jeen going to the past at that time and it isn't acknowledged at all, the summary says "Jean was possessed by the Phoenix"... On Red Jean mentions the DPS, and, when Black Panther says it wasn't her, she says "I was a part of it". Basically the whole "Jean wasn't on any of this, it was all another character" idea isn't pushed these days anymore. You can see it as current Marvel just not giving a fuck which is honestly the reality, but that makes no sense so I'd rather rationalize it as "It was (a part of) her soul on another body so counts as Jean, Jean remembers it and sees it as part of her life now unlike how she felt at first".