Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[Wiccan]

I think what Grey is saying(at least one of the points) is that Jean wasn't made Phoenix because of Storm. Storm is mentioned only as an example of what was meant to be Phoenix's usual power level. When you say "~X~ character is as powerful as Superman", it doesn't mean you're saying "This character is this powerful BECAUSE of Superman". It just means you're using Superman as an analogy to explain the level of power.

[butterflykyss]

Outside of the Silver Age, the 90s was the only time she had her full powerset without the PF around. Unfortunately the 90s were not too kind to her. I appreciate that she will finally get a chance to explore her powers w/o the Phoenix to fall back on. Taylor has already done interesting things with her in Red and we've seen several writers do amazing things with her younger counterpart

yes. Jean needs this. I thought Jeen did some awesome things and those are the type of showings Jean need to continue the narrative that she can be and is more than just the Phoenix.

[butterflykyss]

I think what Grey is saying(at least one of the points) is that Jean wasn't made Phoenix because of Storm. Storm is mentioned only as an example of what was meant to be Phoenix's usual power level. When you say "~X~ character is as powerful as Superman", it doesn't mean you're saying "This character is this powerful BECAUSE of Superman". It just means you're using Superman as an analogy to explain the level of power.

I never said, or at least I dont think I did, that Jean was made Phoenix because of Storm. I said Jean was given Phoenix to put her on the same power level of Storm. That is also what the scan stated so I'm not sure how that was misconstrued.

[Wiccan]

I never said, or at least I dont think I did, that Jean was made Phoenix because of Storm. I said Jean was given Phoenix to put her on the same power level of Storm. That is also what the scan stated.

...No it's not. They mention Storm and Jean's power level to comment on Jean saving the universe on the M'Krann Crystal. To say that while Jean had the potential to do that, it's not something she could usually do. You could replace Storm by any other character who has the same level of power of her and it would mean the exact same thing. Storm's power level is only used as an example, not as a reason.

[butterflykyss]

...No it's not. They mention Storm and Jean's power level to comment on Jean saving the universe on the M'Krann Crystal. To say that while Jean had the potential to do that, it's not something she could usually do. You could replace Storm by any other character who has the same level of power of her and it would mean the exact same thing. Storm's power level is only used as an example, not as a reason.

I don't get all the gymnastics being made to explain what was clearly made by Claremont. Claremont stated ororo specifically because that is the character he wanted to characterized as Phoenix level Jean being equivalent to. If he wanted to use any other character he could have but he made it a point to use ororo. Why is that? Whatever other character he could have used as an example is of no consequence. What I claimed is exactly what he said; however, you are interjecting all these other points that are not relevant. Reason or example doesnt discount that Phoenix level Jean's power was at that time equal to Ororo level power.



Claremont: We wanted something that was a new Jean, and Phoenix was it. We had originally envisioned that she had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's, and saving the of the Universe was a one-time stunt, that it was jean achieving her full potential for that one moment...
...
Sanderson: So after the saving of the universe she was meant to be stuck at Storm's level of power.

[Hellinoze]

As I read it, it means that originally Jean/Phoenix wasn't that powerful... That she was Storm's level powerful.
But she could transcend her limits and go full potential to save the universe.

[Revenant]

I'm taking these pretty much verbatim from that interview. Here:



and here:



It says that with power Jean had as Phoenix when she saved the universe, that was Jean at her full potential for just a moment and otherwise she was "stuck" at Storm's power levels. There's no mention of Dark Phoenix.

I always thought they made her the Phoenix to put her at Thor's power levels. Anyway, this is quite funny bc that would mean that Jean is currently more powerful than the Phoenix they created.

[mike7171]

Good grief this Rachel-Jean exchange in Gold hit a nerve in a lot of people.
People are feeling bad for Rachel when the comics did not show any bad vibes between the two. Everything was all passive. So there was no harm on the exchange.

My 2 cents.

These are powerful grown-up psychics that are more attuned to reality and very well know that they are not really mother-daughter.
So having that exchange should not really have any weight. If rachel was 12, innocent and emotionally unstable, and they have this same exchange, then yes, it will be insensitive of Jean.

And that moment in X-Men red annual, when they were just psychicly bonding, i assume would have established where they are at from a relationship standpoint. I think they are secured enough in their relationship that this exchange is a non-issue.

[mike7171]

ok...my reply posted twice and there is no option to delete the 2nd one?!?

[butterflykyss]

I always thought thye gave her the Phoenix to make her the X-Men with Thor's power levels. Anyway, this is quite funny bc that would mean that Jean is currently more powerful than the Phoenix they created.

Yea there seemed to be a bit of misinformation out there so Im glad I could help clear it up with actual evidence from interviews with Claremont himself. I wouldnt say Jean is more powerful now than the Phoenix then. Remember the Phoenix originally saved the entire universe by healing the M'Kraan crystal. Current Jean without Phoenix has not done anything to that level yet, which is why it's good we finally see she can do without the aid it.

[Havok83]

We have to remember that when Claremont inherited Jean, she was the Silver Age version who's biggest feat was being able to focus her TK to allow her to levitate. Her powers never grew past that as women in general were treated as weak. Claremont didnt view that for Jean and need to evolve her powers bc Silver Age Jean simply wasnt viable for the threats his X-men would be facing. Back then, there was no cosmic force; Phoenix was an evolution of Jean's own potential complete with a new codename adn costume. Outsided of the M'kraan crystal healing, her power levels were not OP. She was a very viable member of the team. Regular Jean as we've seen in X-Factor through Revolution was just as powerful as Jean was during those Claremont Phoenix issues. People just seem to focus on the M'kraan healing and Dark Phoenix Saga, both those were exceptions and not her normal power levels. Of course other writers and retcons created the PF as a seperate cosmic entity and amped up its powers so that people dont think that Jean can be Phoenix and viable at the same time, when originally that was not the case

[loke13]

Good grief this Rachel-Jean exchange in Gold hit a nerve in a lot of people.
People are feeling bad for Rachel when the comics did not show any bad vibes between the two. Everything was all passive. So there was no harm on the exchange.

My 2 cents.

These are powerful grown-up psychics that are more attuned to reality and very well know that they are not really mother-daughter.
So having that exchange should not really have any weight. If rachel was 12, innocent and emotionally unstable, and they have this same exchange, then yes, it will be insensitive of Jean.

And that moment in X-Men red annual, when they were just psychicly bonding, i assume would have established where they are at from a relationship standpoint. I think they are secured enough in their relationship that this exchange is a non-issue.

I mean I don't even know why this is an issue with some fans we can literally just chalk this up to Guggs being a terrible writer who constantly ignores characterization and other writers Works in order to fit his own agenda. Toss this exchange into the void and let's never speak of this again

[loke13]

Good grief this Rachel-Jean exchange in Gold hit a nerve in a lot of people.
People are feeling bad for Rachel when the comics did not show any bad vibes between the two. Everything was all passive. So there was no harm on the exchange.

My 2 cents.

These are powerful grown-up psychics that are more attuned to reality and very well know that they are not really mother-daughter.
So having that exchange should not really have any weight. If rachel was 12, innocent and emotionally unstable, and they have this same exchange, then yes, it will be insensitive of Jean.

And that moment in X-Men red annual, when they were just psychicly bonding, i assume would have established where they are at from a relationship standpoint. I think they are secured enough in their relationship that this exchange is a non-issue.

I mean I don't even know why this is an issue with some fans we can literally just chalk this up to Guggs being a terrible writer who constantly ignores characterization and other writers Works in order to fit his own agenda. Toss this exchange into the void and let's never speak of this again

[butterflykyss]

We have to remember that when Claremont inherited Jean, she was the Silver Age version who's biggest feat was being able to focus her TK to allow her to levitate. Her powers never grew past that as women in general were treated as weak. Claremont didnt view that for Jean and need to evolve her powers bc Silver Age Jean simply wasnt viable for the threats his X-men would be facing. Back then, there was no cosmic force; Phoenix was an evolution of Jean's own potential complete with a new codename adn costume. Outsided of the M'kraan crystal healing, her power levels were not OP. She was a very viable member of the team. Regular Jean as we've seen in X-Factor through Revolution was just as powerful as Jean was during those Claremont Phoenix issues. People just seem to focus on the M'kraan healing and Dark Phoenix Saga, both those were exceptions and not her normal power levels. Of course other writers and retcons created the PF as a seperate cosmic entity and amped up its powers so that people dont think that Jean can be Phoenix and viable at the same time, when originally that was not the case

I actually agree. I cant recall an instance outside of the universe saving feat where she did anything super op. and jean prior to Claremont getting her was super weak. it was very frustrating to read at times. it's funny how at the time cyclops was considered the strongest xman even with jean on the team.

[Peanutsinspace]

The Thor comments/confusion come I think from both Claremont and Cockrum's comments regarding Jean as this new Phoenix character. Here are both of their thoughts:

“Phoenix is actually Marvel Girl at her ultimate extent,” Chris Claremont explained to The Comics Journal. “Phoenix in X-Men #108 (1977), when she saved the universe, was Jean Grey achieving her fullest potential as an entity.”

“Our intent was to create an X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor – someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero,” Claremont revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story. “We thought at the time that we could integrate her into the book as well as Thor had been integrated into the Avengers. The problem with that is that it grew out of the synthesis between Dave and me. The fact that we had, in a sense, created her gave me a degree of involvement that (artist John Byrne) didn’t have, coming in seven issues later.”


“When we first introduced Phoenix, we wanted her to fight Thor or the Silver Surfer, but (new Editor-In-Chief) Jim Shooter wouldn’t allow it,” Cockrum told Comic Creators On X-Men. “He said no female is going to beat Thor or the Silver Surfer. We kind of sneaked around him by sending her up against Firelord, who had once fought Thor to a standstill. We established her power levels that way.”

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