Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[Narasinha]

75 Most Memorable Moments in Marvel Comics History :

#2 The Death of Jean Grey!
#16 Jean Grey Becomes the Phoenix
#45 Phoenix Becomes Dark Phoenix!
#57 Dark Phoenix Destroys a Planet

Not bad

[JeenRogue]

part6

this rocks. I swear the hate x men 3 gets is just ridiculous. the film was very goof to me. I just hated the last arc because the battles were all over the place.

[Grey]

So, have you guys seen the Taken 3 trailer? spoilers:

They killed Jean again.

end of spoilers

Saw that.

spoilers:

poor Famke just seems to play a lot of characters that get killed. Xenia, Jean, Lenore... I wonder if she complains to her agent about that, lol.

end of spoilers

[WallStreeter]

Reading X-Men stories about a Pascifist Phoenix with little to no action would get real boring, real fast (especially since it would require no action involving any other characters either or it makes it look like Jean just doesn't care if she doesn't get involved)...and I'm not sure what books you were reading because Jean was always in the thick of it when the X-Men were threatened...she's got that firey readhead temper.

With characters that powerful, there is just no way to keep coming up with believable threats...unless they become the threat themselves (which has already been done)...it just isn't sustainable.

Yet people only accuse female characters of being too powerful. How powerful is Dr. Strange? Have you read the Avengers lines of books? How powerful is Thor?

Thor has defeated a celestial! Strange has numerous extreme feats.

Phoenix isn't too powerful for the X-Men. Not by a longshot. Put her up against villains like Apocalypse (access to vast alien technology and knowledge, plus multiple powers) and Selene (a variety of mutant powers and a powerful sorceress).

At times the X-Men have not been written as powerful as they could be because Marvel wanted them to focus on the mutants being extremely persecuted/marginalized. While the Avengers were allowed to take on A list threats and have the more powerful characters, in the 90s the X-Men didn't have Phoenix (Jean was codenamed Phoenix but not using it's power), Magik was kept dead (couldn't let the X-Men use magic), Warlock was out of the picture (can't have the X-Men with a technoorganic member). And whereas under Claremont the X-men would fight against Belasco, Doom, Loki, etc., in the 90s all the focus is that mutants were going to be rounded up eventually and taken down by lame robots, with no escape.

But with recent political changes the extreme marginalization front just does not work out any more, so now the X-Men do take on big MU threats (Dormammu for example). Oh, and after the Avengers and X-Men fight over the Phoenix, now the X-Men and Avengers have to deal with a Red Skull with Onslaught level powers. Basic ass kicking superheros are what people are looking for.

As Phoenix, Jean Grey's powers were comparable to Thor or Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch's. Dark Phoenix (star consuming) was a different power level (obviously not going to be used by a hero) and White Phoenix is where she's on a different plane of existence.

Just look at villains or combinations of villains like Kang (who nearly hijacked the power of a Celestial) Immortus, Red Skull, and Ahab. For all their godly level powers (Scarlet Witch, Thor, Rogue, Sunfire), that combo of villains is a formidable team to take down.

[Narasinha]

As Phoenix, Jean Grey's powers were comparable to Thor or Dr. Strange or the Scarlet Witch's. Dark Phoenix (star consuming) was a different power level (obviously not going to be used by a hero) and White Phoenix is where she's on a different plane of existence.

I think that when we say "Phoenix", we mean Jean with the Phoenix Force. There is no difference in power level between Phoenix and Dark Phoenix : Dark Phoenix was just out of control. It's that character that is too powerfull. Jean, without the PF, can be powerfull enough. There is no real need to give her access to the PF except if you want to write cosmic stories. Naturaly, there is nothing that would prevent her to have access only to a limited part of the PF. After all, the Phoenix could learn from past problems and restrict its access to its host.

[Bart]

[Omegastorm]

Great find, me likey.

o

[nightw1ng]

Concerning X-Men: The Last Stand, did the filmmakers ever give a reason as to why they removed Jean's Phoenix flames when she used her powers like in X2? Instead they just made her eyes black and skin pale. I swear, even though I didn't like X-Men:TLS' script, I would have liked the film a whole lot more if we could have just seen Jean manifest a Phoenix raptor. I was waiting for it at the very end when she went out of control, even if it only appeared for a split second amongst the debris and smoke around her, but it never happened. >.<

[5cents]

At the end of X2 they got fans anticipating seeing the raptor. Then in X3 they seem to forget about it. I really do want to see what it would look like. Not sure if we will see it in X-Men Apocalypse but maybe when the x-men movies are rebooted after Apoc will might see a proper Phoenix and Dark Phoenix saga.

[5cents]

Concerning X-Men: The Last Stand, did the filmmakers ever give a reason as to why they removed Jean's Phoenix flames when she used her powers like in X2? Instead they just made her eyes black and skin pale. I swear, even though I didn't like X-Men:TLS' script, I would have liked the film a whole lot more if we could have just seen Jean manifest a Phoenix raptor. I was waiting for it at the very end when she went out of control, even if it only appeared for a split second amongst the debris and smoke around her, but it never happened. >.<

Not sure if it was true or not but I remember reading Ratner saying flames would be too expensive so they went with the dark veins instead.

[WallStreeter]

I think that when we say "Phoenix", we mean Jean with the Phoenix Force. There is no difference in power level between Phoenix and Dark Phoenix : Dark Phoenix was just out of control. It's that character that is too powerfull. Jean, without the PF, can be powerfull enough. There is no real need to give her access to the PF except if you want to write cosmic stories. Naturaly, there is nothing that would prevent her to have access only to a limited part of the PF. After all, the Phoenix could learn from past problems and restrict its access to its host.

Thor can kill Celestials. Dr. .Strange has defeated demonic entities that rule whole dimensions. Why is it okay for men to have cosmic power and be major heroes, but not women?

When not in Dark Phoenix or White Phoenix of the crown mode, Jean is not demonstrably more powerful than Thor or Dr. Strange. The entire point of Claremont and Cockrum making Jean Phoenix is they thought it would be cool to have a female hero that could compete with males.

Notice how in Marvel the hero world is male dominated? At times all the brilliant scientists are male, the great thinkers are male, the cosmic heroes are all male, the great psychic master (Xavier) male, the great sorcerer supreme (Strange) male. Let there be one powerful woman and people scream she's too powerful, when males are not subject to this.

To me this means Marvel needs to appeal to a different fan base and this thankfully has been happening since their purchase by Disney. They have been pushing Magik and other powerful women and teen Jean herself is pretty powerful. The Scarlet Witch is back in a major way (and still powerful). Storm is an X-Men leader again.

And yes, given the X-Men more powerful opponents has been happening these days. Whether it's the Bastion and his Nimrods, the Avengers, Dormmamy (defeated by Magik) or Red Onslaught, the X-Men have been having to deal extremely high level threats.

Btw, the original Phoenix, though she defeated Firelord, was defeated by Magneto and Proteus gave her a hard time. She was powerful, but not all powerful. As the Phoenix the second time around Jean didn't win against Cassandra in just pure power. She also tricked her by doing away with her body and hiding Charles's mind in the mind of all surviving mutants. As a hero Jean as Phoenix does not use Dark Phoenix or unlimited White Phoenix powers.

[Omegastorm]

Thor can kill Celestials. Dr. .Strange has defeated demonic entities that rule whole dimensions. Why is it okay for men to have cosmic power and be major heroes, but not women?

When not in Dark Phoenix or White Phoenix of the crown mode, Jean is not demonstrably more powerful than Thor or Dr. Strange. The entire point of Claremont and Cockrum making Jean Phoenix is they thought it would be cool to have a female hero that could compete with males.

Notice how in Marvel the hero world is male dominated? At times all the brilliant scientists are male, the great thinkers are male, the cosmic heroes are all male, the great psychic master (Xavier) male, the great sorcerer supreme (Strange) male. Let there be one powerful woman and people scream she's too powerful, when males are not subject to this.

To me this means Marvel needs to appeal to a different fan base and this thankfully has been happening since their purchase by Disney. They have been pushing Magik and other powerful women and teen Jean herself is pretty powerful. The Scarlet Witch is back in a major way (and still powerful). Storm is an X-Men leader again.

And yes, given the X-Men more powerful opponents has been happening these days. Whether it's the Bastion and his Nimrods, the Avengers, Dormmamy (defeated by Magik) or Red Onslaught, the X-Men have been having to deal extremely high level threats.

Btw, the original Phoenix, though she defeated Firelord, was defeated by Magneto and Proteus gave her a hard time. She was powerful, but not all powerful. As the Phoenix the second time around Jean didn't win against Cassandra in just pure power. She also tricked her by doing away with her body and hiding Charles's mind in the mind of all surviving mutants. As a hero Jean as Phoenix does not use Dark Phoenix or unlimited White Phoenix powers.

o

[dragonmp93]

Thor can kill Celestials. Dr. .Strange has defeated demonic entities that rule whole dimensions. Why is it okay for men to have cosmic power and be major heroes, but not women?

When not in Dark Phoenix or White Phoenix of the crown mode, Jean is not demonstrably more powerful than Thor or Dr. Strange. The entire point of Claremont and Cockrum making Jean Phoenix is they thought it would be cool to have a female hero that could compete with males.

Notice how in Marvel the hero world is male dominated? At times all the brilliant scientists are male, the great thinkers are male, the cosmic heroes are all male, the great psychic master (Xavier) male, the great sorcerer supreme (Strange) male. Let there be one powerful woman and people scream she's too powerful, when males are not subject to this.

To me this means Marvel needs to appeal to a different fan base and this thankfully has been happening since their purchase by Disney. They have been pushing Magik and other powerful women and teen Jean herself is pretty powerful. The Scarlet Witch is back in a major way (and still powerful). Storm is an X-Men leader again.

And yes, given the X-Men more powerful opponents has been happening these days. Whether it's the Bastion and his Nimrods, the Avengers, Dormmamy (defeated by Magik) or Red Onslaught, the X-Men have been having to deal extremely high level threats.

Btw, the original Phoenix, though she defeated Firelord, was defeated by Magneto and Proteus gave her a hard time. She was powerful, but not all powerful. As the Phoenix the second time around Jean didn't win against Cassandra in just pure power. She also tricked her by doing away with her body and hiding Charles's mind in the mind of all surviving mutants. As a hero Jean as Phoenix does not use Dark Phoenix or unlimited White Phoenix powers.

Well the thing is that the Phoenix is basically an omnipotent forcé, so its power is more or less around the Infinity Gauntlet's, the Ultimate Nullifier's and the One-Above-All's levels; so if she only would use it for mundane utility or when the things had really gone to hell like House of M or AXIS, and problem solved.

[ExodusCloak]

Well the thing is that the Phoenix is basically an omnipotent forcé, so its power is more or less around the Infinity Gauntlet's, the Ultimate Nullifier's and the One-Above-All's levels; so if she only would use it for mundane utility or when the things had really gone to hell like House of M or AXIS, and problem solved.

This was not always the case. It's an evolving concept. It really depends on the writer. If I was alive back then I would have liked to know why some writers thought this:



They even ranked her lowest of rung of cosmic in the 1990 Fantastic Four Annual.

[ZNOP]

Well the thing is that the Phoenix is basically an omnipotent forcé, so its power is more or less around the Infinity Gauntlet's, the Ultimate Nullifier's and the One-Above-All's levels; so if she only would use it for mundane utility or when the things had really gone to hell like House of M or AXIS, and problem solved.

Unless you are specifically doating on the PIS that Morrison sold us, none of that is even remotely true...