Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[grinningdemon]

The disparity was because a bunch of men were only interested in creating entertainment geared to other men. Fortunately they got bought out by Disney, a company which had always cultivated huge male and FEMALE fan bases.

And again, please demonstrate where Jean as Phoenix during the Morrison run was too powerful. Or where Jean in the green Phoenix costume was too powerful. I'm not speaking of Dark Phoenix or White Phoenix of the crown.

During AvX, we see how powerful Xavier was. He mind wiped a bunch of X-men and Avengers, including Rachel and including Namor (one of the Phoenix 5). Xavier could have mentally taken over the world, but he was not accused of being too powerful. Yet Jean was and is.

Magneto pulled Kitty off of a bullet from the other side of the Galaxy. Yet he's not too powerful. And though his powers were diminished they seem to have inexplicably gone up against the Red Skull.

Reed Richards can do anything with his technology. It might as well be magic. But no, he is not too powerful.

Dr. Strange who goes through his ups and down is still not kept dead for years.

I am happy that basically Marvel did bring Jean back, as teen Jean.

Jean was not at full power as Phoenix in Morrison's run but, had she stuck around at the level she was at by the end of the run, it would have become a problem.

Xavier is very powerful...and, as a result, writers have done anything and everything they can to ditch him for decades...he's been killed off more than once, shipped off to space for years, arrested and put in jail, and even depowered at times.

Magneto has traditionally not been a regular fixture in the x-titles and his powers a currently "broken" and he is much weaker than he previously was (and this is not the first time that has happened).

Reed Richard's genius has traditionally caused more problems than it has solved...he's basically his own worst enemy and constantly shoots himself in the foot by creating new problems he has to solve so as to keep him occupied.

Dr. Strange has gone years without even appearing regularly in anything since his last ongoing title ended back in the 90s and has relatively rarely been on a team and, when he has, has usually had his power level dropped in some form or other.

I'm glad Jean is back too but, even though they have made her increasingly powerful, they also made this version young and inexperienced in controlling that power to balance it out...this would not be the case with the adult version.

[ariwl1]

My Thoughts

Ok so this is definitely one of the most famous and probably greatest issues of the X-Men series ever. It is the shocking conclusion to the most recognisable storyline in X-Men history that still resonates to this day. The issue is gripping from the first panel all the way to the last and is a quintessential piece to any comic book collection, not just an X-Men.

I do wonder how many people back in the day figured out what was going to happen at the end of the issue. You get the impression that no one saw the sacrifice coming even though in retrospect it seems like the most obvious conclusion to the whole debacle.

The reason that Jean's deaths and resurrections have become a joke is because of the prominence of that first one in a time when major characters rarely died even more rarely came back...and then it has happened several times since...yes, most of the other characters, male AND FEMALE, have all died at one point but she has become the posterchild for this...it's debatable whether or not this is deserved but perception is key.

It is not deserved (as we've all stated, you can't throw darts at the Marvel cast wall without sticking near a character that hasn't died and been resurrected at least once), but it IS perceived.

To quote the Never Live it Down section of TV Tropes:

Many people have the tendency to take some characters and narrowly define them based on one action or event, often to the exclusion of other, often more important, actions of that character.

Often, this is perfectly understandable, if that action or event stands out more than anything else the character did. But just as often it doesn't, and it can seem as if some people just haven't been paying attention.

Jean Grey is the most visible subject of this trope in regards to her tendency to die and come back to life. Officially she's only come Back from the Dead once, but fake-outs, clones, androids, and shapeshifters among others have been employed to turn "Dead FOR REALLY REAL THIS TIME, YOU GUYS!" into Only Mostly Dead. In truth, Jean does this no more often than many other X-Men characters, but since she (say it with us) Never Lives it Down such incidents never fail to illicit groans from the peanut gallery. It's even become a running gag amongst the characters themselves.

In a related example, Jean's entire pop culture identity has been consumed by the Dark Phoenix Saga, to the point that writers and editors have started just plain writing Phoenix stories for her every so often on account of there doesn't seem to be much else some people are interested in. This trope, in fact, used to be called "Jean Grey Escalation".

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...own/ComicBooks

And the more important a character you are the harder it is to break out of this definition. As much as fans can quote countless issues and panels of their favorite characters from across decades of material, pop-culture's naturally short attention span means all characters relevant identities tend to get reduced to a bio statement of one to two sentences, and Jean is no exception. Jean's death was the most acclaimed and famous story the X-Men ever told, so she carries that baggage and writers constantly allude to that because in pop-culture's lazy eye "It's what she does".

Really one can almost argue that Jean has it a bit better than many of her compatriots since her franchise thumbprint can be expressed by an actual story that greatly influenced the franchise like few others have across its history. For many of her fellow X-Men, even some of the more well known ones, how many of them have a culture identity that would just be a basic description of what the look/act like and what their powers are? Xavier for example, aside from his numerous "deaths" which are just as many if not more than Jean's if I recall, has his wheelchair issue. How many times has regained the use of his legs for one reason or another only to have them all too conveniently taken away since he's the franchise's "wheelchair guy"? I think that count is up to like three or four. But no one reads the X-Men for Xavier so it's not harped on at all.

[PwrdOn]

It's worth noting that the Dark Phoenix saga effectively only became a memorable story by accident. The creators had been wringing their hands for some time over that ever-present issue of Jean being too powerful for the team and had mostly dealt with it by writing her out of the book. Her actual presence in Claremont's run was quite minimal and she spent most of her off by herself while the rest of the X-Men embarked on a series of forgettable adventures. But even this was apparently not enough and they devised a way to sideline her completely by turning her evil and then throwing in the psychic lobotomy so that she'd be, in the words of Byrne, reduced to being "as important as the left front tire of the Blackbird." And still unsatisfied, they took it even further, they seized upon the throwaway D'Bari plot point as a pretext to kill her off in a hasty manner, which is evident in how rushed that scene played out, as they only had time to redo the last couple of pages before the issue had to go to the printer. It's as if Marvel decided that after catching lightning in a bottle the smartest thing to do would be to bury it in the ground forever.

[grinningdemon]

I do wonder how many people back in the day figured out what was going to happen at the end of the issue. You get the impression that no one saw the sacrifice coming even though in retrospect it seems like the most obvious conclusion to the whole debacle.

Hindsight is 20/20...I'm not sure it was all that obvious back then...not only because major character death was a rare thing but also because that isn't the original ending of the story...she was going to live before the editors decided she had to die.

It is not deserved (as we've all stated, you can't throw darts at the Marvel cast wall without sticking near a character that hasn't died and been resurrected at least once), but it IS perceived.

To quote the Never Live it Down section of TV Tropes:

Many people have the tendency to take some characters and narrowly define them based on one action or event, often to the exclusion of other, often more important, actions of that character.

Often, this is perfectly understandable, if that action or event stands out more than anything else the character did. But just as often it doesn't, and it can seem as if some people just haven't been paying attention.

Jean Grey is the most visible subject of this trope in regards to her tendency to die and come back to life. Officially she's only come Back from the Dead once, but fake-outs, clones, androids, and shapeshifters among others have been employed to turn "Dead FOR REALLY REAL THIS TIME, YOU GUYS!" into Only Mostly Dead. In truth, Jean does this no more often than many other X-Men characters, but since she (say it with us) Never Lives it Down such incidents never fail to illicit groans from the peanut gallery. It's even become a running gag amongst the characters themselves.

In a related example, Jean's entire pop culture identity has been consumed by the Dark Phoenix Saga, to the point that writers and editors have started just plain writing Phoenix stories for her every so often on account of there doesn't seem to be much else some people are interested in. This trope, in fact, used to be called "Jean Grey Escalation".

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...own/ComicBooks

And the more important a character you are the harder it is to break out of this definition. As much as fans can quote countless issues and panels of their favorite characters from across decades of material, pop-culture's naturally short attention span means all characters relevant identities tend to get reduced to a bio statement of one to two sentences, and Jean is no exception. Jean's death was the most acclaimed and famous story the X-Men ever told, so she carries that baggage and writers constantly allude to that because in pop-culture's lazy eye "It's what she does".

Really one can almost argue that Jean has it a bit better than many of her compatriots since her franchise thumbprint can be expressed by an actual story that greatly influenced the franchise like few others have across its history. For many of her fellow X-Men, even some of the more well known ones, how many of them have a culture identity that would just be a basic description of what the look/act like and what their powers are? Xavier for example, aside from his numerous "deaths" which are just as many if not more than Jean's if I recall, has his wheelchair issue. How many times has regained the use of his legs for one reason or another only to have them all too conveniently taken away since he's the franchise's "wheelchair guy"? I think that count is up to like three or four. But no one reads the X-Men for Xavier so it's not harped on at all.

It wasn't deserved before the end of Morrison's run but I'm not sure it's underserved now...she died twice in that run alone and then died numerous times again in Phoenix Endsong...it has to be some kind of record.

Either way, as we have agreed, perception is key...and you bring up a valid point about her having it better than a lot of other characters in that this perception is tied to one of the greatest moments in x-history.

[ariwl1]

It's worth noting that the Dark Phoenix saga effectively only became a memorable story by accident.

It does make me wonder what kind of light that puts the franchise as a whole under.

Hindsight is 20/20...I'm not sure it was all that obvious back then...not only because major character death was a rare thing but also because that isn't the original ending of the story...she was going to live before the editors decided she had to die.

Well there was the whole D'bari incident which happened one issue prior. Once that happened Jean dieing or at the very least becoming incapacitated in one way or another was a foregone conclusion which is why editorial put it in there.

It wasn't deserved before the end of Morrison's run but I'm not sure it's underserved now...she died twice in that run alone and then died numerous times again in Phoenix Endsong...it has to be some kind of record.

Either way, as we have agreed, perception is key...and you bring up a valid point about her having it better than a lot of other characters in that this perception is tied to one of the greatest moments in x-history.

Generally, it's considered that deaths that occur in one issue but are immediately nullified in the same issue or one after don't count really since there's no extended absence to appreciate. If that weren't the case all of the X-Men's Outback team would have at least one death on their hands from when they sacrificed themselves en mass and Roma brought them back like a page later.

[grinningdemon]

It does make me wonder what kind of light that puts the franchise as a whole under.

Well, consider that Stan Lee never expected any of the Marvel characters to last more than a decade or so and this wasn't too long after that...I doubt any of them really expected the epic scope the franchise has taken on since those days.

[Rosa Snarks]

So, what have I missed in the sister forum?

[grinningdemon]

Generally, it's considered that deaths that occur in one issue but are immediately nullified in the same issue or one after don't count really since there's no extended absence to appreciate. If that weren't the case all of the X-Men's Outback team would have at least one death on their hands from when they sacrificed themselves en mass and Roma brought them back like a page later.

I would generally agree with that if not for the death/resurrection aspect being such a huge story point with this character...those were not the typical one-off deaths that are undone by the end of the story as most of them were done to specificially show how she dies and comes back repeatedly.

[ariwl1]

So, what have I missed in the sister forum?

Not a lot going on since ANX is a couple weeks off. BUT this is New York Comic Con week so if there is any truth to the Jean Grey getting a solo/mini rumors this is when we'll find out.

I would generally agree with that if not for the death/resurrection aspect being such a huge story point with this character...those were not the typical one-off deaths that are undone by the end of the story as most of them were done to specificially show how she dies and comes back repeatedly.

There was a funny article that counted up the number of times Jean had "died", many of which include the cheap cliffhanger deaths which really shouldn't count, but apparently it's disappeared from the internet so I'll have to wipe this from a forum post elsewhere:

Number of times died: 16+10 times.

1 in Doctor Strange #12 (Implicit)
1 in Marvel Two-In-One #7. (Implicit)
1 in UXM #107. (Implicit)
1 in UXM #108. (Implicit)
1 in UXM #113 (in the opinion of most of her fellow X-Men for the next 12 issues)
1 in UXM #137 (As everyone believed at the time, and for the next five years)
5 in Avengers #314 (Implicit)
1 in Infinity Gauntlet #2
1 in UXM #281
1 in Mys-Tech Wars #3
1 in The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix #1 (soul separated from her own body for a solid twelve years, from her point of view!)
1 just before the start of Captain Marvel #6 (fourth series) (Implicit)
1 in New X-Men #148
1 in New X-Men #150
8 times (at least!) in Phoenix: Endsong #3.

[Rosa Snarks]

Not a lot going on since ANX is a couple weeks off. BUT this is New York Comic Con week so if there is any truth to the Jean Grey getting a solo/mini rumors this is when we'll find out.



There was a funny article that counted up the number of times Jean had "died", many of which include the cheap cliffhanger deaths which really shouldn't count, but apparently it's disappeared from the internet so I'll have to wipe this from a forum post elsewhere:

I really hope they come through with this jean Grey solo. You guys deserve It.

[grinningdemon]

I really hope they come through with this jean Grey solo. You guys deserve It.

I still say she already has one so I don't really see the point.

[grinningdemon]

There was a funny article that counted up the number of times Jean had "died", many of which include the cheap cliffhanger deaths which really shouldn't count, but apparently it's disappeared from the internet so I'll have to wipe this from a forum post elsewhere:

I'm honestly surprised that list isn't longer.

[ariwl1]

I really hope they come through with this jean Grey solo. You guys deserve It.

We'll see. I wouldn't expect it to last long but it could be fun for a while.

I still say she already has one so I don't really see the point.

Thematically no, as Jean as a teenager is pretty hard to drum up a purpose for independent of what's going on in ANX.

Business-wise, ANX has consistently been selling as one of the best X-books since its debut, with Jean the inarguable focal point. So if this happens it's Marvel testing the waters to see if they could wring any more $$$$$ from the Jean Grey Dollar.

Because really how many people who haunt this thread regularly would buy a Jean book unless it was borderline offensively bad?

[Rosa Snarks]

We'll see. I wouldn't expect it to last long but it could be fun for a while.



Thematically no, as Jean as a teenager is pretty hard to drum up a purpose for independent of what's going on in ANX.

Business-wise, ANX has consistently been selling as one of the best X-books since its debut, with Jean the inarguable focal point. So this is Marvel testing the waters to see if they could wring any more $$$$$ from the Jean Grey Dollar.

Because really how many people who haunt this thread regularly would by a Jean book unless it was borderline offensively bad?

So... Heh I've got a plan but it involves rioting lol

[vitamin]

Black Queen of Hellfire by David Lopez.