Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[Gray Lensman]

Exactly. It does feel like recycled stories but it the masses still pay for it can we blame marvel for not trying to reinvent the wheel. That was my main problem with no more humans. It was just another phoenix story essentially. That said, I dont really read what is going on with jeen but I think they have taken this approach with her; to let her stand and function but without being attached to scott. What I want is for the O5 to go back and bring Jean back but without all the amp from the Phoenix.

This is a large part of why I was so disappointed to see Warren and Laura hook up in All-New. Warren was the only person in the comic with any level of compatibility with Jeen, since I feel that both Jeen and Tyke need separate relationships simultaneously to finally move their narrative past the 'eternal triangles' point. If Scott is with whatever girl he meets in space and Jean is still single by the time they meet back up in Black Vortex I am 90% (OK, 99% is probably more accurate) certain we will be subjected to unwanted triangle drama yet again. Now where did I put that facepalm gif...............

[grinningdemon]

That's one way of looking at it, but it really is all a matter of perspective. I will admit I'm not exceptionally well versed in the goings on of the Avengers at the moment and how they're being portrayed. But when I take a step back and look at the two fandoms it's hard not to picture two rival schools talking smack about who's going to win the annual football meet-up. So I generally try not to take sides.

As a fan of both franchises, I can honestly say I'm not happy with everything going on in the x-books lately but I do think the characters are generally being portrayed in a much better light than the Avengers are (or the X-Men that have been pulled to the Avengers)...I know it doesn't make sense but it almost seems like Marvel is actively trying to make them unlikeable for some reason.

I can see why you might come to that conclusion. The truth is that in my more recent years of comic reading I've become much more a fan of characters than franchises. Jean's my number one comic hero, and for the rest of my X-Men top 10 in no particular order it would go something like this depending on my mood: Nightcrawler, Magneto, Wolverine, Storm, Kitty Pryde, Rogue, Beast, Gambit, Mystique.

I don't dissuade people from being fans of the X-Men specifically, but at this point I prefer to read about characters I like rather than teams. The X-franchise is loaded with characters I simply don't give two bits about, and that's true of every fan, so I tend to read the books were my favorites are concentrated and right now that doesn't amount to many.

I think more people work this way then they realize, as it's rare at this point for a reader to love absolutely every character in a team book regardless of franchise. And in my opinion there's not much reason to care about the X-Men as a team (or any team) specifically unless you really care about "The Message". I used to and I don't begrudge anyone who still does because on the surface its heart is in the right place on that. But I've mulled it over too much and the intricacies contained in it in comparison to the real world lesson it's supposedly trying to impart and I just can't take it seriously anymore for a lot of reasons. Perhaps you could say I think too much over it and that may be true, but at this point it's much easier for me to be a fan of specific X-characters as the X-Men as a whole don't really do it for me anymore.

I'm a fan of characters first too but my biggest thing is consistent characterization and development both individually and with their respective relationships...and of course we all have favorites and other characters within the franchises we don't like at all...but, usually, when fans like a number of x-characters, they like the X-Men in general as a premise or team. Characters branching out from time to time isn't a bad idea (some characters are better suited to this than others) but I really don't think this should be done in mass as it has been lately and as you seem to prefer.

What do you think it is people want to change that would cause such a result? All I generally see is those hoping that she not be completely tied down to the X-Men if she ever does come back. After all she's experienced I think it's fair for Jean to consider if living her life 24/7 for the "the dream" is really the best thing for her when history has proven it's rather hazardous to her health, both physically and emotionally.

That could be said for any x-character (as nearly all of them have died at some point and all of them have suffered emotional trauma) or really for any super hero character in general...it's a hazardous lifestyle any way you look at it. That said, it seems to me if you eliminate the Phoenix (which is the part I most want to go away), ignore or marginalize her previous relationships (and I don't just mean romances), AND take her out of the X-Men and drop her somewhere else entirely, there wouldn't be a whole lot left of the character I like.

[grinningdemon]

Agreed 100%. I like jean but the whole phoenix thing is played out in my opinion.

The phoenix is the most played out plot device in X-Men comics...even when it doesn't involve Jean...but, unfortunately, I don't think that's going to stop any time soon.

[WallStreeter]

Actually yes. I know you've mentioned that the Avengers never send their characters over to the X-franchise (Carol Danvers and Quicksilver both had stints actually though it has been a while admittedly), but the thing is it's not a two way street really. The Avengers are focused on world wide threats and serving all of Earth while the X-Men in recent years are pretty much a special interest group who don't venture outside their world unless they absolutely have to. Yes they've saved the world a couple times too but it's nearly always mutant related or something they just fell into. What reason is there for any Avenger to go in for such a narrow focus which is also largely self-interested which is the very antithesis of what superheros are supposed to be?

And closure is largely overrated in a lot of these stories. Scott and Jean just have to admit they had a good run but it's best if they stay separate and maybe hopefully be friends one day. And with Wolverine they would just need to have sex to finally get it out of the way so they could then realize they'd be just about the most boring couple ever.

The X-Men defeated Arkea (intelligent bacteria who organized a new Sisterhood) and that was a worldwide threat. They defeated Dormammu, who took over Limbo (a worldwide threat). And they teamed up with the Avengers to face Red Onslaught (a worldwide threat). And of course, there are mutants who have threatened the whole world (Apocalypse, Selene, Goblin Queen and her Inferno, etc.). They've stopped Magus, Belasco, Kulan Gath, etc (all of whom threatened Earth). Oh, they've stopped the Phalanx (techo alien spawn derived from Warlock). On many occasions, the X-Men have saved the world and they venture outside of their world all the time.

[butterflykyss]

This is a large part of why I was so disappointed to see Warren and Laura hook up in All-New. Warren was the only person in the comic with any level of compatibility with Jeen, since I feel that both Jeen and Tyke need separate relationships simultaneously to finally move their narrative past the 'eternal triangles' point. If Scott is with whatever girl he meets in space and Jean is still single by the time they meet back up in Black Vortex I am 90% (OK, 99% is probably more accurate) certain we will be subjected to unwanted triangle drama yet again. Now where did I put that facepalm gif...............

Yea its to try and garner friction but how about we let the heroes without going into these jerry Springer/Maury type stories. It would nice but as you stated it would probably still occur upon them reconnecting.

The phoenix is the most played out plot device in X-Men comics...even when it doesn't involve Jean...but, unfortunately, I don't think that's going to stop any time soon.

I know its sad... but the good thing is that its more money in my pocket.

[WallStreeter]

As a fan of both franchises, I can honestly say I'm not happy with everything going on in the x-books lately but I do think the characters are generally being portrayed in a much better light than the Avengers are (or the X-Men that have been pulled to the Avengers)...I know it doesn't make sense but it almost seems like Marvel is actively trying to make them unlikeable for some reason.



I'm a fan of characters first too but my biggest thing is consistent characterization and development both individually and with their respective relationships...and of course we all have favorites and other characters within the franchises we don't like at all...but, usually, when fans like a number of x-characters, they like the X-Men in general as a premise or team. Characters branching out from time to time isn't a bad idea (some characters are better suited to this than others) but I really don't think this should be done in mass as it has been lately and as you seem to prefer.



That could be said for any x-character (as nearly all of them have died at some point and all of them have suffered emotional trauma) or really for any super hero character in general...it's a hazardous lifestyle any way you look at it. That said, it seems to me if you eliminate the Phoenix (which is the part I most want to go away), ignore or marginalize her previous relationships (and I don't just mean romances), AND take her out of the X-Men and drop her somewhere else entirely, there wouldn't be a whole lot left of the character I like.

The reasons you just gave are why Bendis still references the Phoenix and why teen Jean must still deal with it's legacy and why he has had to deal with Jean's previous relationships and rivalries. He moved forward on them, but if he had completely ignored all of her relationships and not addressed the Phoenix stuff there wouldn't be much of the character that people know.

It was cool seeing Emma and Jean move PAST their issues, cool seeing Jean learn more about what her role is as Phoenix, and cooling seeing her bond with Kitty Pryde for the first time. Her relationship with Iceman is always what it is (fine) and after their kiss and some drama her relationship with Beast is mostly what it always was.

[grinningdemon]

This is a large part of why I was so disappointed to see Warren and Laura hook up in All-New. Warren was the only person in the comic with any level of compatibility with Jeen, since I feel that both Jeen and Tyke need separate relationships simultaneously to finally move their narrative past the 'eternal triangles' point. If Scott is with whatever girl he meets in space and Jean is still single by the time they meet back up in Black Vortex I am 90% (OK, 99% is probably more accurate) certain we will be subjected to unwanted triangle drama yet again. Now where did I put that facepalm gif...............

As has already been mentioned, Jean/Warren is something that is a lot better in theory than practice...they've toyed with it here and there before and it's just not interesting (partly because Warren, in the O5 days, is not interesting)...it's one thing for Jeen not to be with Scott but I really don't think she should be with another of the O5...I just don't see any way it wouldn't feel forced.

You are almost certainly right about triangle drama returning when Tyke comes back (or at least Jean/Scott drama...don't know if there will be a triangle now that X23 is otherwise occupied) but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing...the characters are developing differently this time around it doesn't necessarily have to feel like a retread or the same old story if they get together again...I actually think it could be really interesting if handled correctly (though, admittedly, that's a big IF).

That said, their relationship is most likely toast when it comes to the adult versions but, as a long time fan of both characters, it would be nice if at least the teens could work it out...and if we can get a new spin on it in the process and a slow build, I'm all for it...I thought X-Men Evolution did a good job handling this.

[grinningdemon]

The X-Men defeated Arkea (intelligent bacteria who organized a new Sisterhood) and that was a worldwide threat. They defeated Dormammu, who took over Limbo (a worldwide threat). And they teamed up with the Avengers to face Red Onslaught (a worldwide threat). And of course, there are mutants who have threatened the whole world (Apocalypse, Selene, Goblin Queen and her Inferno, etc.). They've stopped Magus, Belasco, Kulan Gath, etc (all of whom threatened Earth). Oh, they've stopped the Phalanx (techo alien spawn derived from Warlock). On many occasions, the X-Men have saved the world and they venture outside of their world all the time.

Almost all of those threats are directly tied to specific x-characters are mutant related events...a lot of it still just comes off as dealing with their own mutant drama even if they do actually end up saving the world on occasion...and those times that aren't are relatively few and far between.

[grinningdemon]

The reasons you just gave are why Bendis still references the Phoenix and why teen Jean must still deal with it's legacy and why he has had to deal with Jean's previous relationships and rivalries. He moved forward on them, but if he had completely ignored all of her relationships and not addressed the Phoenix stuff there wouldn't be much of the character that people know.

It was cool seeing Emma and Jean move PAST their issues, cool seeing Jean learn more about what her role is as Phoenix, and cooling seeing her bond with Kitty Pryde for the first time. Her relationship with Iceman is always what it is (fine) and after their kiss and some drama her relationship with Beast is mostly what it always was.

I'm well aware and that's part of why I have generally liked what Bendis has been doing with the O5...but this seems contrary to the approach a lot of people around here would want to see taken with the adult Jean should she come back.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Why did you triple post...anyway though I doubt that the O5 that we have in the present now will really change anything, it's Marvel's way of having the O5 around without them getting in the way of the rest of the storyline, all the while keeping the adult Jean dead and Warren "dead".

[grinningdemon]

Why did you triple post...anyway though I doubt that the O5 that we have in the present now will really change anything, it's Marvel's way of having the O5 around without them getting in the way of the rest of the storyline, all the while keeping the adult Jean dead and Warren "dead".

I generally don't respond to multiple people (or posts) in a single post...just not how I roll.

I think adult Warren will eventually be fixed (when someone actually remembers he's kind of still around)...Jean, I'm not sure about.

The O5 are definitely a way to have their cake and eat it too, so to speak...but I do think, one way or other, there will be some change to come out of it...I'm just hoping that doesn't involve a reboot.

[Narasinha]

That could be said for any x-character (as nearly all of them have died at some point and all of them have suffered emotional trauma) or really for any super hero character in general...it's a hazardous lifestyle any way you look at it. That said, it seems to me if you eliminate the Phoenix (which is the part I most want to go away), ignore or marginalize her previous relationships (and I don't just mean romances), AND take her out of the X-Men and drop her somewhere else entirely, there wouldn't be a whole lot left of the character I like.

In the case of adult Jean, I don't think that people mean to remove those things from her history. What they don't want is that they continue to make new stories based on those elements. The Phoenix Force isn't what it used to be. It doesn't really mean anything any more and it's nearly always used as a cheap plot device now and/or a deus ex machina. As for Scott/Jean love relationship, it run its course. Sure, they could make a new try at it if Jean comes back. But they may also move on. People aren't expected to stay together for ever.

Concerning Jeen, the problem is that we don't want to just read stories that would be a rehearse of what happened to Jean. The result would probably be less good than the original. It would be boring and if it doesn't change anything, everyone would prefer that they just bring adult Jean back.

Bendis spent lot of time showing that Jeen has to cope with what happened to Jean and the person she became. It is shown when Jeen got Beast's memories or when the Shi'ra showed her part of Jean's life. But its also shown, in a more subtle way, in how the other characters were reacting to Jeen and what they were expecting of her. That's a way to connect Jeen to Jean's history and, from there, to be able to explore new directions without losing everything that made Jean who she is.

Many people don't want Jeen to become the Phoenix host for the same reasons as they don't want Jean to come back as Phoenix : That story was told too many time. It losts "its magic". If they wrote a good story about Phoenix, people would like it. But, at this point, we just don't expect/trust them to be able to write a good story about Phoenix anymore.

Jeen love relationship with Scott may still happen. But they are both around 16 years old, so they have the time. When the original story was writen, the society wasn't the same. Jean and Scott didn't had any other love relationship. They would have gone straight from a 15 year old crush to the marriage (at more than 24 year old!) if there wasn't the occasional time when they were thinking that the other was dead. Now, in our time, it seems more realistic that they both have other love relationship with other people. And then, maybe, in a few years, they may end-up together but with more experiences and more wisdom which would allow them to avoid some of the problem they had in their couple.

[ariwl1]

I'm a fan of characters first too but my biggest thing is consistent characterization and development both individually and with their respective relationships...and of course we all have favorites and other characters within the franchises we don't like at all...but, usually, when fans like a number of x-characters, they like the X-Men in general as a premise or team. Characters branching out from time to time isn't a bad idea (some characters are better suited to this than others) but I really don't think this should be done in mass as it has been lately and as you seem to prefer.

That could be said for any x-character (as nearly all of them have died at some point and all of them have suffered emotional trauma) or really for any super hero character in general...it's a hazardous lifestyle any way you look at it. That said, it seems to me if you eliminate the Phoenix (which is the part I most want to go away), ignore or marginalize her previous relationships (and I don't just mean romances), AND take her out of the X-Men and drop her somewhere else entirely, there wouldn't be a whole lot left of the character I like.

I'm more of an individualist. Relationships are an important part of a character's life and they inform the character, but the core of who they are is still something generated wholly within themselves. If the character is nothing without their relationships then they're not much of a character and I don't think Jean has this problem. I don't want her to completely cut ties with the X-Men and her various friends, but I think it's high time she consider what exactly is best for her rather than the team since that's what she's spent the majority of her history doing and it hasn't worked out very well for her (and being the X-Men's pseudo Christ figure isn't exactly a plus in my view).

And it's totally possible to be fan of various X-characters and "meh" or worse on the team as a whole, and I think there are more fans like that around than you might guess. The CBR X-boards are pretty active, but I notice there are an appreciable number of posters who spend most of their time just in the appreciation threads for a few specific characters or discussing just their favorite characters (or anything remotely related to such). As another example take the TV show Friends. If anyone asks me I would say I enjoyed watching the show from time to time, but if they wanted me to get specific they'd find that half the main cast I wanted to dropkick over Long Island.

The X-Men defeated Arkea (intelligent bacteria who organized a new Sisterhood) and that was a worldwide threat. They defeated Dormammu, who took over Limbo (a worldwide threat). And they teamed up with the Avengers to face Red Onslaught (a worldwide threat). And of course, there are mutants who have threatened the whole world (Apocalypse, Selene, Goblin Queen and her Inferno, etc.). They've stopped Magus, Belasco, Kulan Gath, etc (all of whom threatened Earth). Oh, they've stopped the Phalanx (techo alien spawn derived from Warlock). On many occasions, the X-Men have saved the world and they venture outside of their world all the time.

As grinningdemon pointed out the majority of those examples are either mutant specific threats or things the X-Men just fell in to to because of circumstances. One of the reasons the X-Men's mission to advance the acceptance of mutants never goes anywhere is because the general public has no clue what they even do most of the time. They're probably not even sure who the majority of their members are. One of my biggest disappointments with Whedon's Astonishing run is that Cyclops' plan to take on more public threats and raise the public's awareness of them got dropped so quickly. That would have been much more interesting than generic warlike alien race #623.

[grinningdemon]

I'm more of an individualist. Relationships are an important part of a character's life and they inform the character, but the core of who they are is still something generated wholly within themselves. If the character is nothing without their relationships then they're not much of a character and I don't think Jean has this problem. I don't want her to completely cut ties with the X-Men and her various friends, but I think it's high time she consider what exactly is best for her rather than the team since that's what she's spent the majority of her history doing and it hasn't worked out very well for her (and being the X-Men's pseudo Christ figure isn't exactly a plus in my view).

The relationships and the environment a character (or person, for that matter) develops with are a big part of what help to form personality...you're right that there should be something more to a character than that and I agree there definitely is with Jean...doing the "fish out of water" stories where you put a character in an entirely new setting is a great thing from time to time (Tyke's space trip, for instance) but it's not necessarily a good thing for the character long term...of course there can be exceptions to this but I just don't see Jean as one of them...and, as I've said, under the current status quo just about anyone that isn't an X-Man is an Avenger and that isn't a place I would want any character I like to end up right now.

And it's totally possible to be fan of various X-characters and "meh" or worse on the team as a whole, and I think there are more fans like that around than you might guess. The CBR X-boards are pretty active, but I notice there are an appreciable number of posters who spend most of their time just in the appreciation threads for a few specific characters or discussing just their favorite characters (or anything remotely related to such). As another example take the TV show Friends. If anyone asks me I would say I enjoyed watching the show from time to time, but if they wanted me to get specific they'd find that half the main cast I wanted to dropkick over Long Island.

Of course it's possible, I just don't think it's common...I participate in a lot of threads around here and several different appreciation threads too but, you're right, there are a lot of posters who seem to only participate in threads dealing with one or two characters they really like but, in my experience, that is more about fans not liking the current direction of the franchise than not liking the franchise itself...a lot of them talk about how they want to see situations fixed but I don't often see posts about wanting to see favorite x-characters removed from the X-Men in general.

As grinningdemon pointed out the majority of those examples are either mutant specific threats or things the X-Men just fell in to to because of circumstances. One of the reasons the X-Men's mission to advance the acceptance of mutants never goes anywhere is because the general public has no clue what they even do most of the time. They're probably not even sure who the majority of their members are. One of my biggest disappointments with Whedon's Astonishing run is that Cyclops' plan to take on more public threats and raise the public's awareness of them got dropped so quickly. That would have been much more interesting than generic warlike alien race #623.

Agreed...Whedon really missed an opportunity with his Astonishing run...I REALLY liked the premise he set up early on but he just kind of dropped it after that first arc which was a shame...it was still a good run but it could have been so much better if he'd stuck with the proactive superhero idea...furthermore, if he'd done that and maybe brought in one or two characters from outside of the X-Men that still have ties to them (Carol Danvers, for instance) it would have been a much better approach to a "unity" squad than anything Remender has done with Uncanny Avengers (a premise I personally think works better coming from the X-Men side anyway)...and the timing back then would have been better too because the Avengers hadn't been totally deconstructed yet.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

I've long thought that there are things and such about a character that you can only learn, or are more noticeable when a character is in a relationship, and not one in which the writer is trying to do something new and different as we know that they won't last and such...and yeah I'm hoping against a reboot.