Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[MarvelMaster616]

I am of two minds about a Dark Phoenix movie: if done well, that could be really great. But I don't want to see Jean dying again lol

They could always, you know, NOT have her die. Jean needing to live with the consequences of her Phoenix-induced actions, and potentially try and make up for them as best she can, sounds a lot more interesting than just killing her off, imo anyway.

This is something I've been contemplating too. I feel as though X3 set the bar very low for any X-men movie that attempted the Phoenix Saga. That movie did something really egregious in that it didn't just botch the underlying theme of the Phoenix Saga. It did the complete opposite. In the comics, Jean Grey sacrificed herself for the sake of her friends. In X3, she was a complete coward and had to force Wolverine to kill her. That kind of cowardice is NOT Jean Grey and it makes her utterly unsympathetic.

For a new Phoenix Saga with Sophie Turner to succeed, it just has to do precisely not that. That alone isn't too much of a challenge, but I do think that in order for another Phoenix Saga to work in a movie, it has to at least stick to the main theme. It's important that they capture the inner struggle and the overwhelming power she feels. And that power has to be dangerous. At some point, it has to lead her into dark places that she has to carry as a burden later on. She doesn't have to die though. As the Phoenix, that part is kind of redundant anyways.

It really won't be hard to improve on what X3 did. But just improving isn't enough, especially with a talent like Sophie Turner. The Phoenix Saga deserves far better.

[Punisher007]

Dear lord she looks amazing in that. The outfit, the hair, everything. More of this please!!!

[Wiccan]

As most as I love the original DPS, it can be done without her death. In the movie universe, I guess the Shiar stuff is not exactly something they would do, but the Hellfire club part can be great. Bring Emma back, give us Black Queen. They could go kinda like Civil War, with the Hellfire Club being on Zemo's position. No one died, but overral the movie was great. I don't think it should be the next though. As I said before, they need to establish the new team first, make it understandable for the X-Men to choose to save Jean at all costs instead of treating her like a normal villain.

[Havok83]

I can't stop thinking on how freaking awesome she looks on that oufit(and the hair). I wish she was like that on the rest of the film.

IA. I hated her hair during the final battle, especially with the spoilers:

Phoenix moment.

end of spoilers Her hair should have been out and free flowing

[Wiccan]

IA. I hated her hair during the final battle, especially with the spoilers:

Phoenix moment.

end of spoilers Her hair should have been out and free flowing

Truth. It could just be "unleashed" with all the power.

[ariwl1]

It was the 80's. Blame epic levels of hairspray.

[Narasinha]

Nah, those are from the final scene.

Actually this isn't part of the movie. It was filmed on the stage: on the right picture, you can see a part of the camera moving near Jean's shoulder. (someone posted, in the movie thread, a video with several stuff filmed on the stage, including this bit)

[jeanandscott]

Scott obviously. She may have been attracted by Logan and have affection for him but she only loved Scott.



No. She only kissed him a few times: First when she and Logan were really believing that Logan was dying (it was a farwell kiss) and another time during Morrison's run when Scott wasn't talking to her anymore. Several time Logan tried to kiss or "make a pass" at her but she rejected him. (When she kissed him during Morrison it was Logan that rejected her because he knew that it was only a reaction the the situation with Scott and that it wasn't what she wanted and would regret it after).

I've always thought she had moved on from Scott in Morrison, because she calls scott only "best friend" while dying

[Confuzzled]

Yes but as I wrote, the DFS wouldn't be the DFS without Jean's self-sacrifice.

Originaly, they killed Jean because they felt there was no other possibilities. But then the story became famous because of that self-sacrifice. As the author said, that's not what they wanted to do but it turned out into a better story than what they had planned.

Sure, you can write a version of the DFS that doesn't require Jean's self-sacrifice. That's not the problem. The problem is that what make the DFS soo good is the self-sacrifice. Without it, it won't be the DFS and you may as well write another story.

Edit:

To summarize to the extreme, the DFS is the story of Jean' self-sacrifice. As it is writen in the comic: It's the story of Jean "choosing to die human instead of living forever as a god".

Remove that and you will have removed everything that make the DFS what it is.

The self-sacrifice was obviously a moving part then because it was still one of the very first times a major superhero actually died. In this day and age, the effect would have been nowhere as poignant in the comics. And The Last Stand already kind of ruined the death on the big screen too.

It may sound silly when I say it, but with the Phoenix also being the force of life and rebirth and all that, maybe at the end Jean could use all her power to bring back the people she killed. It could be a beautiful scene.
It would also highlight the fact that the Phoenix isn't all evil and she can use it for good without going dark.

Not silly at all. They should show the Phoenix birth another race/planet at the end to display the full spectrum of her duties. But that's the same reason I'm not against her consuming the planet that she does in DPS. She is the force of life and death. The Phoenix established how both of those phases need to be in a constant cycle for the universe to continue existing.

[Punisher007]

See I think that her having to live with what happened, and maybe try and make up for it as best she can, is just far more potentially interesting and emotional than a predictable "she has to die" moment (which has become something of a trope itself these days). Also one thing watching this movie, and then going back and watchin DOFP made clear to me is, Singer REALLY hates what was done to Jean in TLS.

[MarvelMaster616]

See I think that her having to live with what happened, and maybe try and make up for it as best she can, is just far more potentially interesting and emotional than a predictable "she has to die" moment (which has become something of a trope itself these days). Also one thing watching this movie, and then going back and watchin DOFP made clear to me is, Singer REALLY hates what was done to Jean in TLS.

I get that sense too. In fact, when I saw Days of Future Past, I often look at that scene where Magneto tells Xavier, "Well maybe you should've fought harder for them!" and feel that this is Singer's way of responding to what happened with X3. He made his plans for his version of X3 clear. Jean Grey wasn't supposed to be killed off in such a callous, cowardly way. She was supposed to ascend to this new level of power, becoming this god-like mutant who chooses to leave her friends and world behind to protect them. Instead, we got a scene where she was one of the most cowardly, whiny characters in the X-men. Instead of making a heroic sacrifice, she had someone kill her. That's the exact opposite of what happened in the comics and the exact opposite of her sacrifice in X2. I really do think that Singer took that personally and it's showing in how he focused on Jean's development in X-men: Apocalypse. It's for that reason that I hope he and Kinberg avoid making the same mistakes with her in future X-men movies. They've already set things up for the Phoenix Saga. They botched it horribly once. They have no excuse to improve on it now.

[MarvelMaster616]

I've always thought she had moved on from Scott in Morrison, because she calls scott only "best friend" while dying

That really depends on your interpretation. In a later issue, I believe it was an Uncanny X-men Annual, Storm has a moment with the spirit of Jean Grey while she's contemplating on whether to accept Black Panther's marriage proposal. In that conversation, Jean admitted she found love with Cyclops. Even when Storm pointed out the situation with Maddie and Emma, Jean brushed it off and points out she died on him twice and didn't seem to hold that against him. So it would be wrong to assume that she just stopped loving him because even in death, she made her sentiment towards him pretty clear. And in All-New X-men, Cyclops made his sentiment towards her pretty clear.

But, as is often the case, the sentiment often evolves with writers. Morrison had one interpretation, but a good chunk of that got retconned eventually. So it's an ongoing evolution so to speak.

For now, Cyclops and Jean Grey's story are kind of in limbo. I get the sense Marvel is keeping them apart while the O5 are time displaced so they can develop their stories as individuals. But the potential for them to come back together is still there. It depends on the direction they take. As we saw in X-men: Apocalypse, there is still a sense that they are one of the most iconic romances in the history of X-men.

If you're a fan of the pairing, I suggest you check out my X-men Supreme fan fiction series. I've made it a point to really flesh out that relationship. If you want some details, just PM me and I'd be happy to help.

[ariwl1]

Sadly, not everyone knows the Phoenix.

[jeanandscott]

That really depends on your interpretation. In a later issue, I believe it was an Uncanny X-men Annual, Storm has a moment with the spirit of Jean Grey while she's contemplating on whether to accept Black Panther's marriage proposal. In that conversation, Jean admitted she found love with Cyclops. Even when Storm pointed out the situation with Maddie and Emma, Jean brushed it off and points out she died on him twice and didn't seem to hold that against him. So it would be wrong to assume that she just stopped loving him because even in death, she made her sentiment towards him pretty clear. And in All-New X-men, Cyclops made his sentiment towards her pretty clear.

But, as is often the case, the sentiment often evolves with writers. Morrison had one interpretation, but a good chunk of that got retconned eventually. So it's an ongoing evolution so to speak.

For now, Cyclops and Jean Grey's story are kind of in limbo. I get the sense Marvel is keeping them apart while the O5 are time displaced so they can develop their stories as individuals. But the potential for them to come back together is still there. It depends on the direction they take. As we saw in X-men: Apocalypse, there is still a sense that they are one of the most iconic romances in the history of X-men.

If you're a fan of the pairing, I suggest you check out my X-men Supreme fan fiction series. I've made it a point to really flesh out that relationship. If you want some details, just PM me and I'd be happy to help.

I thought at first this was just my wrong interpretation
But I guess it was really what morrison wanted to show; jean moving on from scott (since he openly said he liked jean with logam more) but later this got "retconned" and jean started loving scott again
Yup I stopped reading x-men boos some time ago when all thing started with jean and hank
But after the movie I came back cause since the whole triangle thing between jean scott and logan started after the 2000's movie maybe the same will happen now I really want to see jean and scott together again
I'm expecting to see some good thing in death of X
And I already read your stories lol

[Narasinha]

I thought at first this was just my wrong interpretation
But I guess it was really what morrison wanted to show; jean moving on from scott (since he openly said he liked jean with logam more) but later this got "retconned" and jean started loving scott again

I don't think so. When Jean is about to die in space with Logan, just before she turns Phoenix, it's implied that she still love Scott. Earlier in the run, when she turned to Logan, she was still loving Scott and it was hurting her that they were growing apart. And when Jean, as White Phoenix, told Scott to live and be happy with Emma, she did it because she was loving him.

The "my best friend", when Jean is dying, is not because she doesn't love him anymore. It's because she knows she is going to die and she doesn't want Scott to hurt about her as much as the previous time. That's why she says "all I ever did was die on you". She is just trying to make it easier for him even if that's useless. Yes, Jean is moving on, but it's not about her love for Scott: it's about leaving this world to become the White Phoenix/ascend to the WHR. In the same panel, the Phoenix speaks through Jean and tell Scott "The Phoenix understands..."