Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[Narasinha]

Who is talking about what if ?, the things i listed are canon retcons, for instance, these panels contradicts the cocoon:

Not me, I haven't read the "what if".
I only mentioned the "cocoon" thing because it's the first retcon when they bring back Jean for X-Factor.
It doesn't matter anyway because in the latest, current retcons, the PF is a separate entity and that what Blackphoenix complained about, saying he wanted the Phoenix to be just Jean power like it was originaly. And I pointed that, originaly, it was not just Jean power...

Narasinha, you are misinformed. Phoenix was definitely just a boost to Jean's powers in the original run before her resurrection, not some kind of separate entity/force. All those things you mentioned about Phoenix were stories told years later that retroactively reinterpreted what happened in the original run. Read "Phoenix: The Untold Story" if you want to read about her creation.

Except for the cocoon-stuff, which I mentioned as the first recton, everything else that I mentioned is directly from the DFS. Com'on, I even gave you the exact references, check by yourself ! Here you go again, Uncanny X-Men #137, last episode of the original Dark Phoenix Saga :

uxm137.jpg


Oh and something that I find ironic : If you think that Phoenix was only the power of Jean, that mean that in a few seconds she learned molecular manipulation (changing her costume), operate an alien stargate, open her own stargate and fix an energy matrix that contain a n-galaxy among other things... In that case, O5 Jean is taking her bloody time to learn to use TP ! How can people complain she is learning too fast ! ROTFL

[Narasinha]

Her more assertive personality shift wasn't supposed to indicate she had merged with a separate entity, but rather she was changed by a traumatic event.

Besides, several other characters had personality shifts under Claremont's pen. Just look at Storm, she had a similar Dark Phoenix moment when she was captured by Dr. Doom and she also changed her attitude when she opted the leather/mohawk style. Neither involved merging with an entity.

Sure, you can have a persoanlity shift without external influence. But it takes some time and/or must bring something that was already there to the front.

My problem, in the case of Phoenix, is that it happened in the space of a second and its a total shift of personality. One minute, when the shuttle is crashing, she is Jean/Marvel Girl, the next she rejects her whole being and textualy says that she is not Jean Grey anymore but Phoenix. That's not a shift of personality, that's schizophrenia.

Yes, I know "Power corrupt. Absolute power currupt absolutly". But it's really the use of power that corrupt. Jean gains ultimate powers in the space of an instant. But when she comes out of the water, claiming she is now Phoenix, she doesn't even know/realize that she gained such power or what she can do with it. So, in itself, it can't have affected her personality soo totaly. (Ie: You can't get corrupted by a power that you don't even know you have except if you make that power a malign, external, entity in itself)

If there wasn't this part (Jean coming out of the water, claiming to be Phoenix) and she had at least a little time to realize that she got new powers and what she can do with them, then I agree that it could be a shift of personality resulting of the traumatic events. That she get corrupted by her new found powers (with a little help from Mastermind). But that would also mean that she always had a hidden tendency to abuse her power in her personality. And that I don't belive...

PS: Sorry for the edits. English is not my native language and when I re-read myself, I realize that sometime (ok, most of the time) I don't make much more sense than all the time travel stuff currently going on in the X-men.

[Enigmatic Undead]

[Narasinha]

(drawing)

Pretty nice one, Art School Dropout!

[cwatz]

One of the beautiful things about DPS is just how many ways everything can be interpreted, or even what the key themes of the story are, its one of the things that makes it so great.

As for Jeans personality specifically, the more assertive stuff was on a more personal level imo. We all know Jean can be a little repressed, and has an extremely high moral standard. The polar opposite of that is instinct or nature, which is in essence what the Phoenix/increased power brought out in her, thus it served as more of a catalyst. A lot of her journey pre-hellfire is wrestling between those forces. The good girl she wants to be so badly vs. the primal pleasures of life. Extremely relatable as everyone on the planet struggles with that stuff on a frequent basis.

As for the Phoenix stuff, they make a pretty clear distinction between the "Jean" side of the coin and the "Dark Phoenix" side of the coin. The mental battle with Xavier and the sacrifice on the moon are some notable examples of opposing forces at hand. Thus outside of the DP stuff, I tend to view everything else as Jeans own internal struggles. Regardless of how the DP is interpreted - separate entity or split personality - its the same result, something disconnected from Jeans own character.

As for the busting out of the water, it was probably just meant to be some dramatic moment, not something meant to be heavily analyzed. Id say it succeeded considering how iconic the image is.

Fear not Nara, it doesn't imply that stuff at all. If anything its the opposite. It emphasizes her selfless nature. Its what makes the story so compelling.

[Enigmatic Undead]

[Narasinha]

Cwatz, I totaly agree with you. There is several different interpretation possible. Each with their own values and merits. But those interpretations need to be argumented. Thats why when someone says "it's like that, everyone know it" without any argument, I like argue another point of view

And yes, its a little silly to over analyse a comic : it's not a work that was mean to be (not counting target audience and such). But we do with what we have!

Now, just to shake people a little more : Has the Dark Phoenix done anything evil anyway ? (in DFS or before)
A drug addict that accidentatly kill someone, without realising it or intend, while trying to feed his addiction is not guilty of "first degree murder".
If that person was druged against his will and/or manipulated by someone else, he may not even be guilty of murder at all.

See where I am going ? At a minimal, Mastermind (and a few other people to a lesser degree) share a large part of the guilt. He could even be considered the real perpretor of the crime...

With the subsequent retcon and DP, is there anything that would prevent Phoenix to simply says "Oups sorry, that was an accident, I was young and inexperienced" and pop-back the destroyed planet with all its inhabitant ?

After all... that's exactly the same kind of feat that Dark Phoenix did in "No more Humans"...

Speaking of "No more Humans", O5 Jean may have saved more than just earth human population, she may have saved another universe : We have an alternate Dark Phoenix fully under the control/corrupted by alternate Mastermind/Jason Wyngarde and ready to kill anyone for him. O5 Jean break that control and then the PF listen to arguments instead of going into mindless evil rage. While still being one with alternate Jean, Phoenix is shown as cosmic entity speaking through her (and not something merged with Jean psyche and perverted by flawed human nature... blah blah blah...)

By freeing alternate Jean/Dark Phoenix from Mastermind control (and by bringing her own personality to that version of Dark Phoenix), O5 Jean may well have saved that alternate universe from its version of Dark Phoenix. Neat no ?

For those that need their memory refreshed, it went more or less like that :
Alternate Jason : "Come, save me my Darling from those monsters"
Dark Phoenix appears.
Dark Phoenix : "You hurt my Jason, you are my enemies. I will kill a million X-men to reach my beloved Jason"
Dark Phoenix : "My! what is that ? Another Jean ? Groovy!"
Alternate Jason : "Err... Darling ? There is still X-men that hurt me. If you love me, kill them..."
Dark Phoenix : "Oh, let me play with my new Jean. I am not interested in you anymore Jason, begone..."
Dark Phoenix casualy incinerate Jason...

Ok, I admit, it was delightful to see alternate Dark Phoenix get rid of that little piece of crap without any fuss or going all emo
(Go read back Jason part in original DPS and then this. You will see what I mean... lol)

[ariwl1]

The thing about the Phoenix is that since its inception it's had an ongoing continuity rather than a firmly established one. Even in the original DPS there were lines indicating it was a separate entity and not just Jean. See first three panels:

http://www.artofjohnbyrne.com/galler...?p=*full-image

As far as Jean's relationship to it goes, we have stuff like the Claremont backup issues that provide good detail, but in the actual issue storylines the relationship between the two has always been ill-defined. Even if the Claremont backup issues can be considered canon Marvel certainly doesn't place stock in it going forward. It does that with a lot of the Phoenix history. Any Rachel fan will tell you how that character held it the longest with relatively little issue, but Marvel certainly doesn't seem to care about that at all.

Since Marvel doesn't do DC style reboots, there's no going back to Phoenix being an exclusive extension of Jean's personality. It's too well established as being an independent entity. And the more Marvel trots it, out the more people get tired of it. It seems to have no apparent purpose except to deus ex machina stories and drum up drama. Right now it's an impending natural disaster that rolls through on a regular basis and causes a bunch of damage, like America's Tornado Alley.

[jutcher]

Oh don't worry. I didn't mean anything by it. "The Affair" is one of those things where everyone has firmly entrenched themselves in their opinion so bringing it up on the boards usually just devolves into a bunch of hissing cats. I've settled on everyone involved in that little love triangle made some stupid moves so it's best to move on.

I completely understand.

All the other future Brotherhood were controled. So maybe her too. Agreed Jeen read her mind but perhaps she only saw what Xorn wanted her to see...




I mean that anything could have changed Jeen's future. And especialy the action of the future X-Men. It's their meddling that pushed Jeen to become more powerfull. And they obviously didn't know anything about the new power she discovered. So the present is already not the past of the future X-men. Jeen defeating Baby Xavier may mean that she will never become Xorn. So this future Xorn vanished from this reality. (In the same way as present Scott nearly vanished from reality when O5 Scott was dying)

Ironicaly, in this case, the future X-men reached their goal, just not in the way they expected : By coming to the past and being defeated by Jeen, they prevent their future to happen.

On a side note, future X-Men don't know about Jeen new power. So it can't be this new power that turned her into Xorn (in the future that may have just been changed)...

PS: Can someone find a Time Lord and a Tardis please ?

Hmm, I get it. Thanks for clarifying your point of view. But I think this theory is a bit failure, is not the mutation that determines the existence of a person, this is a secundary stuff. Proof of this is that the old Jean never developed this new Jeen's power and remain the same person. The adult Cyclops vanished because hhis teenage version had died.

I think Xorna also developed this new power. What else could explain she being forced to wear that mask?

the good of all this is that really the future was changed with Xorna coming to fight Jeen, I agree with you.

[jutcher]

I haven't posted inthis thread since the reboot!!! Greetings, Church of the Phoenix!

If Marvel reboots next year, and that is a big if, I want them to remove the Phoenix Force from continuity and go back to the original version of the Phoenix. Originally, Phoenix was simply Jean's powers evolved to cosmic levels, and I want that to be restored. I am so over the crap where anybody can become Phoenix. Quentin Quire should NEVER be a Phoenix.

Tell me about it.

What about VISION being the host? This was weird!!!

Visão-fênix.jpg

And as a said claremont: "For me, the relationship between Phoenix and Jean is primal and unbreakable, and transcends the brief interlude of Jean's physical existence on Earth". but I hope that has no reboot.

[Blackphoenix]

Tell me about it.

What about VISION being the host? This was weird!!!

Visão-fênix.jpg

And as a said claremont: "For me, the relationship between Phoenix and Jean is primal and unbreakable, and transcends the brief interlude of Jean's physical existence on Earth". but I hope that has no reboot.

The Vision became a host of the Phoenix Force?? What is that from?

This is what I was talking about. I don't want the Phoenix hopping around from body to body like Sam Beckett from Quantum Leap. I still say that the original plan for Phoenix (behind the scenes, not the stuff in the actual comics) was to boost Jean's powers to cosmic levels. I know it's too late to put that genie back in the bottle, but I wish it had stayed that way.

[jutcher]

The Vision became a host of the Phoenix Force?? What is that from?

This is what I was talking about. I don't want the Phoenix hopping around from body to body like Sam Beckett from Quantum Leap. I still say that the original plan for Phoenix (behind the scenes, not the stuff in the actual comics) was to boost Jean's powers to cosmic levels. I know it's too late to put that genie back in the bottle, but I wish it had stayed that way.

This is from the last issue of Uncanny Avengers. Now until robots can be the host. lol

[Narasinha]

But I think this theory is a bit failure, is not the mutation that determines the existence of a person, this is a secundary stuff.

No, no, I never said that. I am just saying that Jeen developping a power that Xorn doesn't have is a proof that the future is already changed. In that new future, Jeen may be dead before turing into Xorn. Or she may be alive but never turn into Xorn. Or whatever... anything is possible. (That's what Emma said...)

In SF, there is 3 common views about time travel :
1) You simply can't create a paradox. Not possible. No go. Forget about it. The laws of the univers just wont allow it. That usualy mean that if a time traveller try to alter the present/future by changing the past, it will always fail and it usualy turn (badly) against the time traveller.

2) It's a matter of energy against the inertia of the universe. You may alter small things that have little/no consequences. But the bigger the changes, the more you have to fight against the inertia of the universe and the more energy it takes. Usualy changes are seen like a wave that propagate along the time line and get dampened down pretty fast except under some very rare/specific conditions.

3) The "Butterfly effect" based on Chaos Theory : Any change, even the most insignificant ones, may go totaly out of control and cascade into major alteration to the timeline.

There is a book of Isaac Asimov (The End of Eternity) that is based on something between 2) and 3). In that story, a civilisation develop a science that let them calculate the minimal effect (the one needing the less energy) to effect the wanted change.

In all three theories, a way to avoid paradox is by having the universe "healing" itself by erasing from reality the source of the paradox. Ie: by trying to create a paradox, the time traveler may erase himself (and the anything that allowed him to time travel up to the whole civilisation that discovered time travel technology) from reality.

There is many other theories. Including the ones about alternate/parallel universe : you never travel into the past of your own universe but into the past of an alternate universe that is exactly the same up to the point of your arrival. Then both universe start to diverge from each others. (In a book from John Scalzi, that's how faster-than-light travel work : A spaceship don't really go faster than light (which amount to going back in time and so create a paradox) but instead move to an alternate universe in which it is located at a different location)

Most time travelling stuff in MU is based on parallel universe/alternate reality. But by showing us that current Cyclope would cease to existe if O5 Cyclope die, Bendis excluded that possibility and stated that its the same timeline. (Except if, as I pointed out in another post, current Cyclope and O5 Cyclope are both coming from an alternate reality. Leaving the current Cyclope of this reality free to be somewhere else... like in the White Hot Room, helping Jean pass time... lol)

[cwatz]

This is what I was talking about. I don't want the Phoenix hopping around from body to body like Sam Beckett from Quantum Leap. I still say that the original plan for Phoenix (behind the scenes, not the stuff in the actual comics) was to boost Jean's powers to cosmic levels. I know it's too late to put that genie back in the bottle, but I wish it had stayed that way.

Im pretty sure everyone wishes it stayed that way. All they have managed to do is damage the phoenix property while telling bad stories. Pretty frustrating for anyone that is a Jean fan.

[jorge17881]

so.... All-New X-Men #33 Cover by mahmudasrar and coloured by Marte Gracia /jean vs spiderman