Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/The Phoenix Appreciation

[Narasinha]

jean vs spiderman

... or trying to do it in freefall ?

[All-New Valar Stercus NOW.1]

... or trying to do it in freefall ?

It can be both things. kinky

[Narasinha]

I'm pretty sure she wants adult Cyke.

Has ANXM 26 been discussed in this appreciation thread yet?

Totally disappointed in Jeen if she seriously went after Adult Scott. It's an affront to the character if there ever was one. Jean Grey has more self-respect than that. Bendis better show us she did it to further her own agenda in the next issue or so. It's also the only way it makes sense. Jeen tells Adult Scott she can't imagine them ever getting married, then snipes at Tyke about how she has to deal with the future infidelity then suddenly she's clumsily hitting on Adult Scott?

And other comments about Jeen and present Cyclope little talk...

Wont/shouldn't happen. Jean likes her alpha males. Not a kid 3 years younger than her (I read hes 13?).
Thats a pretty huge step to go from adult Cyke, to a child.

And other comments about a possible (totaly hypotetical) relation between Jeen and Spiderman...

Good, I wanted to give my opinion on those subjects too and with the cover posted above, at least I am not totaly out of date...

First, let me say that I didn't read the little chat between Jeen and present Scott as Jeen trying to hit on him at all.
In fact, I think that talk was needed, for both characters, and was pretty well done. Sure Jeen may feel something toward Cyclope because he has similarities with O5 Scott. But with the difference of age, experiences and all that Scott lived through he is also a very different person from O5 Scott.

The present is not at all what the O5 were expecting when they formed the X-Men. It pretty far from their ideal and their present version of themselve aren't what they expected too (thats the main point of Beast bringing them to the present in the first place). They are disoriented, probably homesick, scared and desillusioned (dont forget how young they are). They also don't have their mentor so there isnt many people they can talk to about all that. The people they know at the JGS are mostly very different version of themselves that just wanted one thing : pack them away. And anyway, they are not available as they are at the JGS. That leave a bunch of kids as young and even more lost than themselves, Magneto when he is around (ah ah, having him acting as confident and paternal figure to a bunch of lost O5 kids would be hilarous), Emma (no way Jeen would open herself to her), Kitty (they didn't know her before coming to present) and good old Scotty (who is the only one, with Kitty, to have taken their side without questions)

Scott came to Jeen to have that talk when she needed it and comfort her. That's cleared things between them and helped her. Sure, she may like him, perhaps even have a small crush for him but that doesn't mean she want to have a relationship with him. Like you can have a crush for one of your teacher but never acknowledge it or want it to go anywhere). Jeen still loves O5 Scott and present Scott is too different.

That said, you also have to remember from "when" the O5 are coming from : At that time, Jean never told to Scott that she loves him and she is sure that Scott doesn't have any interest in her. Same for Scott : He never told Jean he loves her and he persuaded himself that he should never love someone because he can't control his power and would risk to hurt her.

Even if Scott/Jean couple fans would screem to heresy, it's a fact that at that time, there was no real relationship between Scott and Jean even if they secretly had a crush over each others. I don't know if the O5 comes from before or after Jean went back to school but she was starting a relationship with a guy there. So yes, it's totaly possible for O5 Scott and Jeen to build a relationship with someone else, especialy if they drift apart for a long time, as it seems to be the case with Scott going to space.

Is a relationship between Jeen and Spiderman ? I have no idee. I don't know at all that character...

[Narasinha]

Magneto when he is around (ah ah, having him acting as confident and paternal figure to a bunch of lost O5 kids would be hilarous)

Jeen : May I call you "Uncle Erik" ? -big hug-
would be worth to watch Magneto face...

Now that I think about it, Magneto is bald like Xavier... so why not...

Oh, I got it : the Last Will of Xavier is the secret of his revolutionary hairs lotion. And Baby Xavier came back from the future to steal it. (ok I stop now... promise)

[jutcher]

No, no, I never said that. I am just saying that Jeen developping a power that Xorn doesn't have is a proof that the future is already changed. In that new future, Jeen may be dead before turing into Xorn. Or she may be alive but never turn into Xorn. Or whatever... anything is possible. (That's what Emma said...)

In SF, there is 3 common views about time travel :
1) You simply can't create a paradox. Not possible. No go. Forget about it. The laws of the univers just wont allow it. That usualy mean that if a time traveller try to alter the present/future by changing the past, it will always fail and it usualy turn (badly) against the time traveller.

2) It's a matter of energy against the inertia of the universe. You may alter small things that have little/no consequences. But the bigger the changes, the more you have to fight against the inertia of the universe and the more energy it takes. Usualy changes are seen like a wave that propagate along the time line and get dampened down pretty fast except under some very rare/specific conditions.

3) The "Butterfly effect" based on Chaos Theory : Any change, even the most insignificant ones, may go totaly out of control and cascade into major alteration to the timeline.

There is a book of Isaac Asimov (The End of Eternity) that is based on something between 2) and 3). In that story, a civilisation develop a science that let them calculate the minimal effect (the one needing the less energy) to effect the wanted change.

In all three theories, a way to avoid paradox is by having the universe "healing" itself by erasing from reality the source of the paradox. Ie: by trying to create a paradox, the time traveler may erase himself (and the anything that allowed him to time travel up to the whole civilisation that discovered time travel technology) from reality.

There is many other theories. Including the ones about alternate/parallel universe : you never travel into the past of your own universe but into the past of an alternate universe that is exactly the same up to the point of your arrival. Then both universe start to diverge from each others. (In a book from John Scalzi, that's how faster-than-light travel work : A spaceship don't really go faster than light (which amount to going back in time and so create a paradox) but instead move to an alternate universe in which it is located at a different location)

Most time travelling stuff in MU is based on parallel universe/alternate reality. But by showing us that current Cyclope would cease to existe if O5 Cyclope die, Bendis excluded that possibility and stated that its the same timeline. (Except if, as I pointed out in another post, current Cyclope and O5 Cyclope are both coming from an alternate reality. Leaving the current Cyclope of this reality free to be somewhere else... like in the White Hot Room, helping Jean pass time... lol)

Oh wow yesss! great analysis, I hadn't thought of it that way because there are so many time travelers in MU that not happens something like this when they change the future, but that's because they are from alternative reality as you said and you're right. Thanks for posting.

[jutcher]

Jean and Emma: Fire and ice.

[dragonmp93]

Not me, I haven't read the "what if".
I only mentioned the "cocoon" thing because it's the first retcon when they bring back Jean for X-Factor.
It doesn't matter anyway because in the latest, current retcons, the PF is a separate entity and that what Blackphoenix complained about, saying he wanted the Phoenix to be just Jean power like it was originaly. And I pointed that, originaly, it was not just Jean power...



Except for the cocoon-stuff, which I mentioned as the first recton, everything else that I mentioned is directly from the DFS. Com'on, I even gave you the exact references, check by yourself ! Here you go again, Uncanny X-Men #137, last episode of the original Dark Phoenix Saga :

Attachment 7214


Oh and something that I find ironic : If you think that Phoenix was only the power of Jean, that mean that in a few seconds she learned molecular manipulation (changing her costume), operate an alien stargate, open her own stargate and fix an energy matrix that contain a n-galaxy among other things... In that case, O5 Jean is taking her bloody time to learn to use TP ! How can people complain she is learning too fast ! ROTFL

I still read as Jean became a goddess, not that she merged with one.
And, you know that the Phoenix is omnipotent, right ?, so if you want do something, you just do it, you dont need to know anything about anything. (besides, Bendis like to take his sweet time to get anywhere,)

Sure, you can have a persoanlity shift without external influence. But it takes some time and/or must bring something that was already there to the front.

My problem, in the case of Phoenix, is that it happened in the space of a second and its a total shift of personality. One minute, when the shuttle is crashing, she is Jean/Marvel Girl, the next she rejects her whole being and textualy says that she is not Jean Grey anymore but Phoenix. That's not a shift of personality, that's schizophrenia.

Yes, I know "Power corrupt. Absolute power currupt absolutly". But it's really the use of power that corrupt. Jean gains ultimate powers in the space of an instant. But when she comes out of the water, claiming she is now Phoenix, she doesn't even know/realize that she gained such power or what she can do with it. So, in itself, it can't have affected her personality soo totaly. (Ie: You can't get corrupted by a power that you don't even know you have except if you make that power a malign, external, entity in itself)

If there wasn't this part (Jean coming out of the water, claiming to be Phoenix) and she had at least a little time to realize that she got new powers and what she can do with them, then I agree that it could be a shift of personality resulting of the traumatic events. That she get corrupted by her new found powers (with a little help from Mastermind). But that would also mean that she always had a hidden tendency to abuse her power in her personality. And that I don't belive...

PS: Sorry for the edits. English is not my native language and when I re-read myself, I realize that sometime (ok, most of the time) I don't make much more sense than all the time travel stuff currently going on in the X-men.

You know that she is not saint, right ?.

No, no, I never said that. I am just saying that Jeen developping a power that Xorn doesn't have is a proof that the future is already changed. In that new future, Jeen may be dead before turing into Xorn. Or she may be alive but never turn into Xorn. Or whatever... anything is possible. (That's what Emma said...)

In SF, there is 3 common views about time travel :
1) You simply can't create a paradox. Not possible. No go. Forget about it. The laws of the univers just wont allow it. That usualy mean that if a time traveller try to alter the present/future by changing the past, it will always fail and it usualy turn (badly) against the time traveller.

2) It's a matter of energy against the inertia of the universe. You may alter small things that have little/no consequences. But the bigger the changes, the more you have to fight against the inertia of the universe and the more energy it takes. Usualy changes are seen like a wave that propagate along the time line and get dampened down pretty fast except under some very rare/specific conditions.

3) The "Butterfly effect" based on Chaos Theory : Any change, even the most insignificant ones, may go totaly out of control and cascade into major alteration to the timeline.

There is a book of Isaac Asimov (The End of Eternity) that is based on something between 2) and 3). In that story, a civilisation develop a science that let them calculate the minimal effect (the one needing the less energy) to effect the wanted change.

In all three theories, a way to avoid paradox is by having the universe "healing" itself by erasing from reality the source of the paradox. Ie: by trying to create a paradox, the time traveler may erase himself (and the anything that allowed him to time travel up to the whole civilisation that discovered time travel technology) from reality.

There is many other theories. Including the ones about alternate/parallel universe : you never travel into the past of your own universe but into the past of an alternate universe that is exactly the same up to the point of your arrival. Then both universe start to diverge from each others. (In a book from John Scalzi, that's how faster-than-light travel work : A spaceship don't really go faster than light (which amount to going back in time and so create a paradox) but instead move to an alternate universe in which it is located at a different location)

Most time travelling stuff in MU is based on parallel universe/alternate reality. But by showing us that current Cyclope would cease to existe if O5 Cyclope die, Bendis excluded that possibility and stated that its the same timeline. (Except if, as I pointed out in another post, current Cyclope and O5 Cyclope are both coming from an alternate reality. Leaving the current Cyclope of this reality free to be somewhere else... like in the White Hot Room, helping Jean pass time... lol)

Well, according to Doctor Who, you can change the things. And have you ever heard of the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey...Stuff ?.
But after all, that is the way that the things tend to work in the marvel universe, otherwise, Rachel, Cable, X-man wont be around, isnt ?.

[Narasinha]

I still read as Jean became a goddess, not that she merged with one.
And, you know that the Phoenix is omnipotent, right ?, so if you want do something, you just do it

That's contradictory. And omnipotence doesn't equal omniscience. You can have all the power you want, that doesn't mean you will know everything.
If there is no external factors, when Jean unlocked her unlimited power, did she got a big data download from the universe at the same time ? Handy that ultimate mutant powers comes with their "user manual".

Well, according to Doctor Who, you can change the things.

I beg to differ. The Doctor said that only Time Lord can change some things. And there is things that even Time Lord can't change.
He also said that you can't cross your own timeline.
Look at the "Water of Mars" episode : That's when the Doctor started to think he could change things, realised he went to far and there would be a price to pay.
Also many things happened because the Doctor tried to change them. (paradox/self-fullfiling prophecy). For example, in the Fires of Pompeii, the volcano errupted specificaly because of the action of the Doctor. It's him coming to this place/time that resulted in the eruption that make him come to this place/time.

But after all, that is the way that the things tend to work in the marvel universe, otherwise, Rachel, Cable, X-man wont be around, isnt ?.

Yes, you can change things in the MU. That's what I said about Jeen not becoming Xorn (and so Xorn vanishing infront of the O5) because timeline was altered.
But most such things, in the MU, are based on alternate realities or parallel universe. Not time travel.

Also, it's not big deal to bring future people to the present. It's a lot more annoying to bring people from the past to the present. The past is writen while the future isnt. It's all a matter of point of view. Lets try to explain :

Rachel comes from the future to the present to try to avoid her future. She change stuff so her future never happen and is replaced by a new future.
No big deal for the person in the present (and for us reader) : Everything continue as before except that the dystopian future was avoided.

What happen to Rachel ? There is 2 "classic" possibilities in SF :
1) Rachel is erased because the future that created her is erased too.
2) Rachel isn't erased because when her future is erased she isn't in it. She is actualy in the present that isn't affected by the change.

Now, what is the problem with the O5 if they are not sent back and everything put back exactly how it was ?
The O5 are removed from the past. So the past can't happen. Instead a new past happen in which the O5 doesn't exist.

For the person in the present (and for us reader) everything related to the original O5 change. If they had a big enough influence on the events (as they did), the whole history is different. You can trash every comics that happened before and write new ones to fill the new version of the past.

What happen to the O5 ? Nothing at all. They continue to be here, in the now altered present.

That's why, storywise, it's easier to play with time traveling from the future to the present than time traveling from the past to the present. You need to make sure that nothing happen to the time traveler or that the time traveler didn't had any meaningfull influences over history. Idealy, the person traveling from the past to the present/future will do so just before dying. That way, if something happen to him during his travels, nothing will change in the past.

Except if you just want to reboot the whole past and replace it by something else.

You want the parallel universes explaination too ? (that's the "easy" way ) :

Rachel comes from an alternate future to the present. There is now 2 alternate universe that were identical up to that point and that start to diverge. One that is affected by Rachel action in the present. And the one from which Rachel came from that isn't affected (and whose nobody care about because the comics wont be based on it). But Rachel got to stay in our universe so at least her is happy. (Too bad for all the people she left stuck in her original universe)

The O5 are taken from an alternate past (that was exactly identical to ours up to that point) to our present. Our past was never changed so nothing happen. The O5 can do whatever they want. Stay, go away, die... that won't affect our past.
The past of the alternate universe is totaly messed-up... but who care, we aren't reading comics based on it anyway.

[jutcher]

Jean with Spider-Man seems odd to me. I had hopes that Bendis develop a relationship between Jean and Warren since Tyke went into space. In the first comics and at the time of X-Factor, Warren had a crush on Jean. They would make a cute couple, but unfortunately Bendis will hook up Warren with X-23.

Maybe time travel made ​​him forget his feelings.

[Narasinha]

at the time of X-Factor, Warren had a crush on Jean. They would make a cute couple

In the original UXM (1963-) he had a crush on her too. From which he quickly moved to have a crush on anything that move...
They may be cute but he has as much personality as an amoeba...

[Narasinha]

Anyways, the other day i read that Bendis posted in his Tumblr that he was quite happy about what kitty did in the DOFP movie, because he had written himself into a corner and now he had a solution for that.

I am really enjoying ANXM but that's exactly what I hate : an author should never find himself in this situation. When starting to write a story, you should know where you want to go and have some idee about how to go there.

When playing with something as messy as time travels, you better have to choose your pet theory in advance and then stick to it. Trying to make-up as you go and hoping that when you finally need it, you will find a neat solution really don't work. Patch-up solutions just mean that your boat is leaking from everywhere.

Some SF authors can handle time travel based stories just fine. But, based on past records, I don't have much expectation from comic's authors. Perhaps I am doing them an injustice.... I really hope so... we will see.

[jorge17881]

yes.. jean and warren, and he almost said something to her in battle of atom 2..

[PwrdOn]

Jean with Spider-Man seems odd to me. I had hopes that Bendis develop a relationship between Jean and Warren since Tyke went into space. In the first comics and at the time of X-Factor, Warren had a crush on Jean. They would make a cute couple, but unfortunately Bendis will hook up Warren with X-23.

Maybe time travel made ​​him forget his feelings.

Warren is basically the empty-headed blond dreamboat that Jean knows better than to be attracted to, though she does enjoy the flirtatious back and forth just for fun.

[All-New Valar Stercus NOW.1]

You want the parallel universes explaination too ? (that's the "easy" way ) :

Rachel comes from an alternate future to the present. There is now 2 alternate universe that were identical up to that point and that start to diverge. One that is affected by Rachel action in the present. And the one from which Rachel came from that isn't affected (and whose nobody care about because the comics wont be based on it). But Rachel got to stay in our universe so at least her is happy. (Too bad for all the people she left stuck in her original universe)

Rachel did in fact go back to her alternate future and fixed things there. Of course she also had to be from a different reality because she was never born here.

That's what doesn't add up about the O5 being here, you can't have Tyke dying causing the disappearance of Cyclops while at the same time future Jeen/Xorna never going back doesn't effect things. So Xorna and the futurehood must be from yet another different timeline that also didn't lose their O5 to the future.

Or that whole time is broken thing.

My head hurts.

[dragonmp93]

That's contradictory. And omnipotence doesn't equal omniscience. You can have all the power you want, that doesn't mean you will know everything.
If there is no external factors, when Jean unlocked her unlimited power, did she got a big data download from the universe at the same time ? Handy that ultimate mutant powers comes with their "user manual".

I dont think that the powers in general works that way, that is like saying the magneto needs a couple PhD's in physics to be able to use his magnetic powers, or cyclops have a PhD in maths, another PhD in geometry, and a high enough IQ to do fast complex calculations mentally, so can make his eye laser beams bounce, or like saying that the scarlet witch and hope summmers have enough PhD's in biology and chemistry to know the exact location of the x-gene and how to turn off/on, respectively, one specific gene, and lets not forget what happened with the phoenix five, that out of the five, only Emma had previous experience with telepathy, and that i dont how colossus got enough time to learn how to give legs to the whales.

I beg to differ. The Doctor said that only Time Lord can change some things. And there is things that even Time Lord can't change.
He also said that you can't cross your own timeline.
Look at the "Water of Mars" episode : That's when the Doctor started to think he could change things, realised he went to far and there would be a price to pay.
Also many things happened because the Doctor tried to change them. (paradox/self-fullfiling prophecy). For example, in the Fires of Pompeii, the volcano errupted specificaly because of the action of the Doctor. It's him coming to this place/time that resulted in the eruption that make him come to this place/time.



Yes, you can change things in the MU. That's what I said about Jeen not becoming Xorn (and so Xorn vanishing infront of the O5) because timeline was altered.
But most such things, in the MU, are based on alternate realities or parallel universe. Not time travel.

Also, it's not big deal to bring future people to the present. It's a lot more annoying to bring people from the past to the present. The past is writen while the future isnt. It's all a matter of point of view. Lets try to explain :

Rachel comes from the future to the present to try to avoid her future. She change stuff so her future never happen and is replaced by a new future.
No big deal for the person in the present (and for us reader) : Everything continue as before except that the dystopian future was avoided.

What happen to Rachel ? There is 2 "classic" possibilities in SF :
1) Rachel is erased because the future that created her is erased too.
2) Rachel isn't erased because when her future is erased she isn't in it. She is actualy in the present that isn't affected by the change.

Now, what is the problem with the O5 if they are not sent back and everything put back exactly how it was ?
The O5 are removed from the past. So the past can't happen. Instead a new past happen in which the O5 doesn't exist.

For the person in the present (and for us reader) everything related to the original O5 change. If they had a big enough influence on the events (as they did), the whole history is different. You can trash every comics that happened before and write new ones to fill the new version of the past.

What happen to the O5 ? Nothing at all. They continue to be here, in the now altered present.

That's why, storywise, it's easier to play with time traveling from the future to the present than time traveling from the past to the present. You need to make sure that nothing happen to the time traveler or that the time traveler didn't had any meaningfull influences over history. Idealy, the person traveling from the past to the present/future will do so just before dying. That way, if something happen to him during his travels, nothing will change in the past.

Except if you just want to reboot the whole past and replace it by something else.

You want the parallel universes explaination too ? (that's the "easy" way ) :

Rachel comes from an alternate future to the present. There is now 2 alternate universe that were identical up to that point and that start to diverge. One that is affected by Rachel action in the present. And the one from which Rachel came from that isn't affected (and whose nobody care about because the comics wont be based on it). But Rachel got to stay in our universe so at least her is happy. (Too bad for all the people she left stuck in her original universe)

The O5 are taken from an alternate past (that was exactly identical to ours up to that point) to our present. Our past was never changed so nothing happen. The O5 can do whatever they want. Stay, go away, die... that won't affect our past.
The past of the alternate universe is totaly messed-up... but who care, we aren't reading comics based on it anyway.

Well, this is a "little" off topic, but there is several change to the timeline that you can say that are the Doctor's fault: the master's 1-year-reigh of terror, the war doctor not destroying gallifrey, the doctor not dieing at either lake silencio or trenzelore, getting out clara out his own timestream.