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  1. #16
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    Liked:

    Pa and Ma Kent being alive
    Lois being an actual reporter and less obsessed with Superman
    Lois and Clark dating
    Lana knowing the secret identity
    Lex as powerful business man
    Clark being the real personality and Superman being the disguise
    Taking the Legion out of Clark's early years
    Clark being the last Kryptonian
    Clark regarding Earth as home instead of Krypton
    Removing all the different types of Kryptonite
    Making Bizarro an imperfect clone
    The distrust between him and Batman
    Toning down the powers


    Disliked
    No longer a JLA founder. Absolutely no reason he couldn't be a part of the League.
    Non Kryptonian/Alternate Universe Supergirl/Superboy/Zod et al. If they wanted to bring these characters back, just make them Kryptonian
    Birthing Matrix. It doesn't add anything to have Clark "born" on Earth instead of Krypton
    Manhunter shenanigans in Smallville. It complicated Lana's backstory and was never relevant again.

  2. #17
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Disliked
    Byrne's version of Krypton
    No Kara Zor-El
    Russian Zod and no Phantom Zone Criminal's
    Birthing Matrix and Clark being "born" on earth
    Playing down Clark's Kryptonian heritage
    No Clark as Superboy and the erasing of Superboy as the inspiration for the Legion of Super-Heroes
    Clark as a Sports star in school
    Lex Luthor's Retconned origin
    Retconning Kandor
    mild-manned "Clark Kent" being Superman's real persona

    Liked
    Adding the Businessman element to Lex Luthor. Although this got better in the 2000s when Luthor was a scientist and a businessman
    Clark marrying Lois Lane

    luckily, all of the Post-Crisis changes that I listed as being bad ended up being retconned in the 2000s.
    “Somewhere, in our darkest night, we made up the story of a man who will never let us down.”

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  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Disliked:
    The birthing matrix having Clark technically born on Earth
    Kents alive into Clark's adulthood.
    Superboy history wiped out.
    Legion History wiped out
    Elimination of Kara Zor-El's existence
    Elimination of General Zod and all other Phantom Zone criminals
    "Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do"
    Sports star high school Clark
    Not-at-all-mild-mannered adult Clark
    Cold and desolate Krypton that Superman doesn't care about
    Too far nerfing of his powers
    Superman/Batman frenemies
    Milton Fine Brainiac

    Liked:
    Business man Lex (got better though when mad scientist was mixed in)
    More independent Lois
    Greater fleshed out Lana
    Expanded Metropolis supporting cast/settings
    Superman's costume (longer cape, larger S, slightly darker royal blue)
    Superman and Wonder Woman as besties

    Far more dislikes than likes. Its basically become this weird dichotomy with me. I grew up on the Superman that the post-Crisis reboot created. Byrne was gone by the time I came on board thus some details changed, but it was largely the same platform. And I loved it. I still love the memories of it and many specific storylines. But I've grown to almost hate the foundation as its just so counter-intuitive to Superman as I broadened my reach of his history and past stories and my tastes have changed.
    Pretty much all of this. So much of the post-Crisis foundation was utterly wrong-headed for what Superman is and had been for fifty years. I did like the Byrne Krypton, but not Clark's ambivalence to it. I didn't like the lower power level either; if you think Superman shouldn't be utterly and impossibly powerful you're totally missing out on a huge factor of his narrative; the essence of restraint.

    Almost everything I dislike about post-Crisis was retconned in the 2000's (except the Kents being alive, though we did get halfway there eventually), and I appreciated the effort, but by then, the foundation was so different all the "proper" elements that got brought back home never really gelled. The idea of Clark spending time with the Legion (which is totally appropriate and proper for Clark) felt oddly tacked-on to the guy who was the prom king and high school football star and all that. When the New52 hit, all the pre- and post-Crisis elements were (mostly) able to co-exist comfortably and it all worked, but when Loeb started putting the toys back in play in the early 00's it just felt very inorganic.

    As usual me and Sacred are on basically the same page. >brofist!<
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  5. #20
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I've known many of the common dislikes, but it's really interesting seeing them written down as a topic, and the frequency. The funniest thing to me is that in the years between Azzarello and Morrison, with all the confusion and off stories, I'd forgotten and come to despise Post crisis Superman in favor of Pre crisis Superman. And around the time Morrison was wrapping up, back issues made me confront my own dislikes:

    - the power nerf wasn't as drastic going by the comics and not thinking of the cartoon. He could outlift any Marvel character, get past nuclear weapons, and fistfight a pre crisis Kryptonian even if he would ultimately lose.

    - and he did lose fights. But he took it in stride and humility and always came back for more. Reminds me of a real fighter as opposed to some protected champ with a padded record. Instead of getting killed by Doomsday as I always saw it, I re-read that story and it really dawned on me that he was just as much a Doomsday for Doomsday than the other way around, what with the double KO. I liked it when Bronze age Superman would get impressed by the strength of others, too, so it stopped seeming so different.

    - the birthing matrix made him Murrican, but ironically I started seeing how it also made him very alien. I like the simplicity of arriving as a baby but I think being old enough to talk is too old, and like Jon Clark I dig the idea of actually passing as a Kent by blood.

    - the extroverted Clark started making me thinking of my own ascending self esteem. I didn't have to relate to him as a "dork" analogy really, just as a man who can be different things to different people. I like the idea of hiding in plain sight over putting on an act.

    - it also meant the people around Clark mattered significantly more, and more people meant more diversity. But honestly I wasn't around to always read it monthly like that and the space his supporting characters took up may have felt like more of a con than I can know.

    - his coddling parents only seemed to be around when things were slow and we'd gotten enough thought bubble monologues.

    - Lex actually seemed like a guy who had a life outside of Superman.

    - Krypton wasn't easy to love, but that made the journey rewarding. There's a tragedy in losing the perfect world, but that's not so true to the immigrant or adolescent experiences. Learning to love it hit closer to home later on for me.

    - Supergirl and Krypto weren't a part of it. But it took longer to get the original Kara than it did the post crisis Kara.

    - Millennium was really bad. Not so much for being ridiculous as it was just the sort of thing they rebooted to get rid of in the first place. Like a Kryptonian holiday where Superman has to speak backwards or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post

    No powers til puberty. I don't know why this bothers me as much as it does. Maybe it's because my first exposure to Superman was the Donner movies with him lifting the truck over his head as a toddler so that just got ingrained in my mind as what he should be able to do. Maybe it was the Ruby Spears version being the first version I ever really got attached to. It sounds stupid, I know, but that's how I feel. I doubt DC is going to make that canon just to appease me, though.

    By eight years old he could lift a truck. Granted, that makes the football thing even weirder.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Kent View Post

    3. Clark was a real person. Clark Kent should have as much of a right to chasing his hopes and dreams as the rest of us do. Being Superman shouldn't rob him of that. "My" Clark wanted to be a novelist, so he wrote one. He wanted to be a good reporter, so he worked hard at it (his first story notwithstanding lol). He can be Super and still be successful as a man, and Post Crisis Clark proved that. I know people get up in arms over him thinking of himself as human first and Kryptonian second, but this was a guy who grew up thinking he really was human. He was like 17 when he was told about the ship...if I found out tomorrow that I was adopted and I was actually from Ireland, sure I would be interested a bit in learning more but I would never consider myself anything but an American because this is who I am and what I know. If that makes.

    But Krypton isn't a nationality, it's a race and the over all difference between Superman and humans is far more vast than those between the many different races that populate the Earth. Being a Kryptonian is Clark's race and if the guy can't be proud of that then he's got bigger problems on his plate the trying to be Super, I'd argue he's struggling to even be a man. Post-Crisis Superman is the only Superman I ever really find myself feeling like he comes off as skittish or gun shy and I think part of that is because he was robbed of a simple corner stone of self confidence.

    Although Byrne and others say they made Clark the real persona and made Superman a mask the more I read the less I find myself agreeing with that. Rather I think they just kind of found Clark Kent as an antiquated aspect of the character and just chucked Clark out. I mean post-crisis Superman was suppose to be a more grounded, scaled back, and realistic interpretation so it probably lines up that the worlds strongest man moonlighting as a wimp seemed lame to Byrne and Wolfman at the time. Superman became Superman all the time and his clothes determined how much effort he was putting in; when he was in Super suit he was putting in %100 and when he was in street clothes he was putting in around %2 but just %2 from Superman is going to blow away just about any regular human competition. Case in point it's considered a feather in Lois's hat that she can compete with Clark despite him having endless advantages over her. So he wins awards left and right, he's home coming king, he's the star athlete, etc and in the end it's all meaningless and matters about as much as Bruce winning entrepreneur of the year over a girl scout selling cookies.

    Helping people is why Superman is Superman and why he's a reporter, helping people and helping the world in general matter to the guy, winning shiny trinkets when he's got a fortress full of memorabilia from the countless adventures he's been on feels small for the big guy.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Well of course, I don't have a real-world equivalent to the idea of finding out I was from another planet so I substituted a location. I think I made my point well enough, though. I won't turn this thread into another "is Clark or Superman the real person" because we have dozens of those and everyone fights in a circle lol This was for stating our likes & dislikes, and I liked how they did it
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  8. #23
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Likes
    Lex using his brilliance to make a ton of cash. Why would a genius like Lex rob banks when he can just found a corporation and rob people legally? Lexcorp and CEO Lex was and is a great addition

    Lois being an actual capable reporter again. I gotta be blunt, aside from the Golden Age Pre-Crisis Lois sucked. Her stories are just so cringeworthy to me now, and I don’t know if it’s at all possible to try to redeem what Lois had been turned into. A clean break was pretty much absolutely essential in order to rebuild Lois.

    A ton of great new supporting cast members like Cat Grant, Rob Troupe, Maggie Sawyer and others. Metropolis started to feel like a real lived in city, and the Daily Planet became a place that was more than just a pit stop for Supes in-between missions.

    The power nerfing. I’m not really a stickler for power levels. I really don’t care about “feats” or arguing over who could beat who. But I think Supes should start off with his Golden Age power levels and only really get back to Silver Age stuff when he’s an old man like in Kingdom Come.

    I liked Lana knowing his secret, and being his childhood confidant.

    Dislikes
    While as I mentioned I liked Lex being a CEO, I didn’t like him being the Kingpin essentially. He should be around the same age as Clark, he should be fit, and he should be a relative newcomer to Metropolis.

    I dislike Yuppie Clark a lot. I disliked him being a football star and scoring all these trophies.

    I disliked the Kents being alive. They added nothing imo, and Clark is a much stronger character with them dead. He needs a clean break with Smallville, only Lana should keep in contact with him since she follows him to Metropolis

    I disliked all the utterly convoltued ways they tried to get around the “no other Kryptonians” rule with Zod and Supergirl.

    I hated the Pre-Johns Brainiac. Such a dumb character

  9. #24
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I really didn't like muscle bound Brainiac beating Superman up. That seemed like strangely missing the point in an otherwise good story. Maybe the default post crisis Brainiac being able to telepathically wreck the new gods was another extreme, but at least it had something to do with his mighty brain being his threat.

    I guess more than power levels for me it's about proportion. A relatively similar standing in the DCU, largely the same compared to some, stronger against some but weaker against a third group compared to his older self.
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  10. #25
    Incredible Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    There was an edict for a long time after post crisis to simplify Superman and make him unique again which I liked and while Pre-Crisis Superman was my first Superman Post Crisis Superman was the version I loved.

    Changes I liked:

    1: Business Lex Luthor.

    2: Lois Lane becoming more of a self efficient golden age style reporter it started in the Bronze Age but solidified in the Post Crisis Era.

    3: Lois and Clark finally getting off the will they won't they pot and doing it.

    4: Krypton I think the more alien Krypton emphasized the importance being raised on Earth had to developing Superman also the look of Kryptonians were cool IMO.

    5: Jonathan and Martha I just love Clark having a place to go to be himself.

    6: Speaking of which Clark being the real persona with a slightly bumbling Clark as a mask with the idealized man mask of Superman.

    7: Kandor being a city of aliens love the concept of Kandor but think when it's Kryptonians it takes away from Superman.

    8: The adding to the Super Family with Steel and Kon.

    9: Phantom Zone being an alien prison I like a few Kryptonian villains like Zod and minions but prefer most to be non Kryptonian threats.

    10: Linda Danvers, Kara is my idealized Supergirl but I loved Linda and wish she'd be brought back as Superwoman and the former Supergirl with it revealed she is Kara's adopted cousin.


    Dislikes:

    1: Clark not being Superboy in the Legion. I'm ok with Clark not being Superboy in Smallville but he should had traveled to the future and be him with the Legion like in the cartoon or something.

    2: Batman and Superman's more antagonists relationship.

    3: While eventually rectified Krypto and more importantly Kara missing from the mythos.
    I completely agree with your dislikes especially the superboy part and the antagonism between him and Batman.

    Likes:
    Kryptonian martial arts
    Luthor being older
    The use of intergang
    Mxyzptlk

    Dislikes:
    Lack of mad scientist luthor ( I did like the business angle)
    "Birth" on earth and downplayed and sometimes utter lack of super intelligence
    Yuppy highschool jock Clark Kent
    Kents still being alive
    Lack of love for krypton
    Psychic body snatcher brainiac (they fixed this though)
    Having to use breathing devices. I really hated that.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I dislike the temporary loss of Super Intelligence, even Lex seemed less smart. It never made sense to me that he would have those senses and still process things as if he was just like you or me. I also prefer Lex being a straight up criminal. Who's got time to get into tuxedos when job number 1 is taking down Superman? I love when Lex shows up to a fight with a new ray gun and his prison gear. The whole Superman mythology went on dim. The Legion couldn't have ties to him, the fortress was an alien place he explored, his earnestness was a weakness, there is just so much I prefer about the pre-crisis character. I really think they have taken the reins of the character for a few years now and he has been better for it. What other character has had to carve off so much of their mythology? Imagine if the Fantastic Four were only allowed to have a tangential connection to so many of the ideas that started with them. Okay, beside the wildly successful Marvel Cinematic Universe.

  12. #27
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    Luthor being a businessman who's in it for the money is a downgrade of his character. Pre-Crisis, we already found out that Lex had many shell corporations and made money from his inventions. He wasn't a bank robber--I can't think of many stories where he was doing it for the money. To Lex it was about the intellectual challenge. He could get out of prison whenever he wanted, but he preferred to stay in prison, only leaving when he had a new idea to test out. He was so brilliant that material wealth meant nothing to him. It was all about challenging his intellect. The overweight busnessman who treats women like garbage is so much less than his pre-Crisis counterpart.

    I was also really let down by Lana Lang. Allowing her to know Clark's identity and be his trusted friend seemed like that was going to give Lana a big role in Superman's life. But instead having this knowledge defeats her and she accomplishes nothing. Pre-Crisis Lana was an archaeologist, a broadcast news superster, an honourary member of the Legion of Super-Heroes, a love interest for Vartox, a master of Kandorian martial arts and virtually a sister to Clark Kent.

  13. #28
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I really didn't like muscle bound Brainiac beating Superman up. That seemed like strangely missing the point in an otherwise good story. Maybe the default post crisis Brainiac being able to telepathically wreck the new gods was another extreme, but at least it had something to do with his mighty brain being his threat.

    I guess more than power levels for me it's about proportion. A relatively similar standing in the DCU, largely the same compared to some, stronger against some but weaker against a third group compared to his older self.
    Sorry man I liked it. Why wouldn’t Brainiac build bodies that let him match Kryptonians power-wise if he needs to? It’s not like Lex who fakes being proud of his status as “just” human. Brainiac is someone who would totally modify himself if he needs to.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I think at one point Mongul's son had to train Superman how to fight. Okay so maybe Superman could learn a particular technique from Mongul or some other space Super Being but it read like Superman just didn't know how to fight. In fact, he couldn't be the best at lots of stuff. With Superman right now, it makes sense to me that Aquaman would out swim him, yet, I can completely imagine Superman plunging through the Ocean, and then the Mantle, and then the Earth's crust in the time it would take Aquaman to swim from Atlantis to Gotham.

    I really despised the Superman Batman dynamic. To this day still, I have to accept that Rorshach would beat Dr. Manhattan in a fight, that's what it feels like.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
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    Business man Lex: I’m just going to say it, pre-crisis Lex sucked imo. Him growing up in Smallville is pointless, him hating Superman for causing him to go bald is laughable. Ditching that, giving him Lexcorp was the best thing that ever happened to the character.
    I have no problem with anyone preferring businessman Lex over his Pre-Crisis counterpart, but I am sick of the lie that "Lex hated Superman for making him bald". Pre-Crisis Lex wasn't upset about the actual baldness, never was.

    Depending on the writer he may have gotten angry about the fact he felt Superboy deliberately caused the baldness but that wasn't focused on the hair loss it was the idea Superboy had targeted Lex. It was made clear in later stories that part of the reason Lex was upset was that Superboy destroyed an experiment that had created artificial life. Even the original story showed that Lex had tried after that event to do good only for his actions to backfire and make Superboy look even more heroic. At worst the baldness was simply the first step in having Superman humiliate Lex for the rest of his life.

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