Post Crisis Changes You Liked and Didn't

[sunofdarkchild]

I think at one point Mongul's son had to train Superman how to fight. Okay so maybe Superman could learn a particular technique from Mongul or some other space Super Being but it read like Superman just didn't know how to fight. In fact, he couldn't be the best at lots of stuff. With Superman right now, it makes sense to me that Aquaman would out swim him, yet, I can completely imagine Superman plunging through the Ocean, and then the Mantle, and then the Earth's crust in the time it would take Aquaman to swim from Atlantis to Gotham.

I really despised the Superman Batman dynamic. To this day still, I have to accept that Rorshach would beat Dr. Manhattan in a fight, that's what it feels like.

The Mongul training was about training him to fight with hfull strength and not hold back. Post-Crisis often showed that his habit of pulling his punches so as not to kill common crooks caused his to unconsciously hold back against stringer opponents as well, and Mongol's son was trying to get him to break that habit.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah, Loeb basically just built on what was already installed, that Superman was as strong as he believed himself to be and naturally held back. The famous example was that the reason Superman couldn't move a planet was because it doesn't make sense, not necessarily because of his own limitations. The training also fit with all the non physical growth he'd been undergoing

Luthor being a businessman who's in it for the money is a downgrade of his character. Pre-Crisis, we already found out that Lex had many shell corporations and made money from his inventions. He wasn't a bank robber--I can't think of many stories where he was doing it for the money. To Lex it was about the intellectual challenge. He could get out of prison whenever he wanted, but he preferred to stay in prison, only leaving when he had a new idea to test out. He was so brilliant that material wealth meant nothing to him. It was all about challenging his intellect. The overweight busnessman who treats women like garbage is so much less than his pre-Crisis counterpart.

The pre crisis Luthor had known Superboy since he was a teen. That he had a different trajectory in making it to middle age without Superman is kind of the idea. Also, he wasn't exactly kind with women.

Sorry man I liked it. Why wouldn’t Brainiac build bodies that let him match Kryptonians power-wise if he needs to? It’s not like Lex who fakes being proud of his status as “just” human. Brainiac is someone who would totally modify himself if he needs to.

Modifications sure, it was just the idea that the retro direction at the time clashed with a random, fist fighting Brainiac. There are so many characters that would fill such a space better.

[Darkseid Is]

This is gonna sound stupid and petty and I think it was actually changed at some point but I didn't like Clark as a football star in Smallville. It just feels weird. Keep the nerdy persona going.

[Jim Kelly]

One has to make a distinction between the early Superman after Crisis and the later Superman after Crisis. In my mind, those are two different things.

For just the sheer bravery in throwing everything out and making up a completely different character, I admire that early Superman. But it's a thought experiment, where once I had explored all the changes that could happen, I decided that I liked things better how they were before and I wanted DC to just simply bring back the previous Superman.

They never did that, but the writers changed Superman and his side characters enough that they could bring back pre-Crisis Superman elements. While some of that is pleasing, it's not as impactful as either the early post-Crisis retcon or the classic fantastical Superman.

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think the basic principles behind Crisis were a good idea. To simply the storytelling by integrating the two main "DC verses" plus the "Charlton" and "Fawcett" verses into one cohesive whole, however IMO a lot of how they went about it was an incoherent mish-mish which harmed the integrity of the DCverse and it's ability to tell good stories going forward.

During Crisis they had three Kal-Els (Earth-2/GA "The original", Earth-1/SA "The current", and Superboy) and two Kara Zor-Els - Earth-2s Karen "Power Girl" Star and Earth-1s Linda "Supergirl" Danvers. Four of the five survived the Crisis (I'm fine with Kara dying, but she's forgotten while Barry is remembered? Gee I wonder why?), but they trashed the history of the three remaining established characters - GA Supes exiled (screws up GA titles), SA Supes stripped of his SB career and JLA founder status (screws up JLA and LoSH), Power Girl no longer a Kryptonian but rather an Atlantean... that lacks Atlantean waterbreathing and can fly? SB I'm not bothered about as he was a one-shot character anyway.

However, as badly as they screwed up the Super Family, the Wonders had it even worse. Similar to the Supers, there were four key "Amazons" going into Crisis, Diana Trevor and her daughter Lyta (GA), Princess Diana (SA) and Donna Troy. Of the four, three survived Crisis, Diana T, Lyta and Donna, however Diana T was exiled -thus requiring a reboot of Lyta - and replaced by a deaged SA Wonder Woman (who they'd killed off a couple of issues earlier?) thus invalidating Donna's backstory and required that to be rebooted (BTW, the simplest option would have been to combine Donna and Fury and have her as the 21-ish WW who fought during Legends! as Donna was about that age at the time and an older, effectively immortal Diana could still do all the diplomatic stuff anyway).

[HandofPrometheus]

I think I liked all the Byrne changes. And the 90s era. I would say the thing I dislike the most is what happened with Supergirl. Her Earth-One origin is significantly better than any of the ones she got afterwards IMO.

Same. I LOVE Byrne's run and everything about it. I like a nerfed Superman and Lois Lane and Lex Luthor became way better characters than before.

Oh yeah and I love Linda Danvers more than Kara so there's that.

One dislike is severing the ties between him and the LoS. I like that he influenced them and they were so proud to be around him.

[superduperman]

By eight years old he could lift a truck. Granted, that makes the football thing even weirder.

I know. My first real exposure to the post-Crisis origin was a card series that came out in the mid-nineties. It has Clark lifting the truck over his head and said he was eight at the time. And in my mind I remember going "Huh, that's kind of late to be getting powers". Keep in mind, to me, Superman was shaped by what I saw on TV. Not the comics. Things like the Donner movies and cartoons. Which, up to that point, had never shown him any other way. Maybe it was the fact that they chose to duplicate the scene from the movie. IDK. It's weird how the things we see in our youth shape how we perceive certain things and they stay with us our whole lives. And, yes, I've heard all the arguments about the dangers of giving toddlers super powers and the logic part of my brain can understand that but the emotional part has a hard time accepting the idea of a Superman that at one time wasn't super. But, yeah, anybody who was lifting trucks over their head at eight has no business playing sports with ordinary humans. Seems like every other version but Byrne's understood that.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I have no problem with anyone preferring businessman Lex over his Pre-Crisis counterpart, but I am sick of the lie that "Lex hated Superman for making him bald". Pre-Crisis Lex wasn't upset about the actual baldness, never was.

Depending on the writer he may have gotten angry about the fact he felt Superboy deliberately caused the baldness but that wasn't focused on the hair loss it was the idea Superboy had targeted Lex. It was made clear in later stories that part of the reason Lex was upset was that Superboy destroyed an experiment that had created artificial life. Even the original story showed that Lex had tried after that event to do good only for his actions to backfire and make Superboy look even more heroic. At worst the baldness was simply the first step in having Superman humiliate Lex for the rest of his life.

from what I’ve seen and read, he was clearly pissed about the hair, even if there were other factors. Either way that incident being the catalyst of their feud has always been dumb and boring to me. I much prefer versions where Lex hates Kal because he was the most powerful and respected man in Metropolis before the alien showed up. Don’t like him growing up with Clark either. Something I loved about Red Son is that they both grew up in different countries and STILL became enemies. I like the world simply being too small for someone with Superman’s power and Lex’s ego.

[Vordan]

from what I’ve seen and read, he was clearly pissed about the hair, even if there were other factors. Either way that incident being the catalyst of their feud has always been dumb and boring to me. I much prefer versions where Lex hates Kal because he was the most powerful and respected man in Metropolis before the alien showed up. Don’t like him growing up with Clark either. Something I loved about Red Son is that they both grew up in different countries and STILL became enemies. I like the world simply being too small for someone with Superman’s power and Lex’s ego.

That’s probably one of the best one line summaries of their relationship that I’ve read.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think at one point Mongul's son had to train Superman how to fight. Okay so maybe Superman could learn a particular technique from Mongul or some other space Super Being but it read like Superman just didn't know how to fight. In fact, he couldn't be the best at lots of stuff. With Superman right now, it makes sense to me that Aquaman would out swim him, yet, I can completely imagine Superman plunging through the Ocean, and then the Mantle, and then the Earth's crust in the time it would take Aquaman to swim from Atlantis to Gotham.

I really despised the Superman Batman dynamic. To this day still, I have to accept that Rorshach would beat Dr. Manhattan in a fight, that's what it feels like.

That’s a lot of bad science. Crust, then mantle I think.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

That’s probably one of the best one line summaries of their relationship that I’ve read.

Thanks man anyway the closest I’ve come to liking Clark knowing Lex pre-Superman was Smallville. A show I really like with a spin on the Clark&Lex dynamic I still really enjoy......but in the end they had Lex lose his memories of all that so he can assume his role as Superman’s archenemy. Which really drives home that there’s very little to gain from making them have that history when Lex has no idea Clark and Superman are one and the same.

[HeroVladimir93]

Thanks man anyway the closest I’ve come to liking Clark knowing Lex pre-Superman was Smallville. A show I really like with a spin on the Clark&Lex dynamic I still really enjoy......but in the end they had Lex lose his memories of all that so he can assume his role as Superman’s archenemy. Which really drives home that there’s very little to gain from making them have that history when Lex has no idea Clark and Superman are one and the same.

The best Superman/Lex interaction, in my opinion, was in Action Comics #900, where Lex finally learns Superman's secret identity and then he goes nuts over the fact that Lex, a human, got stuck with an abusive and hideous excuse for a father while Clark, an alien, got blessed with a loving family. At the end of the day, Superman will always have what Lex secretly wants but is too proud to admit it, let alone search for it: love. It adds a whole new level of pathos and nuance to their relationship, and Action Comics #900 alone was much better than the entirety of Smallville.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

The best Superman/Lex interaction, in my opinion, was in Action Comics #900, where Lex finally learns Superman's secret identity and then he goes nuts over the fact that Lex, a human, got stuck with an abusive and hideous excuse for a father while Clark, an alien, got blessed with a loving family. At the end of the day, Superman will always have what Lex secretly wants but is too proud to admit it, let alone search for it: love. It adds a whole new level of pathos and nuance to their relationship, and Action Comics #900 alone was much better than the entirety of Smallville.

Yeah Black Ring is a cool story but I think that scene would have worked fine even if Lex didn’t just happen to have gone to the same small town school as Clark. Lex could still have been envious of his enemy having a loving family even if he didn’t personally know them. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think he did know them beyond a passing familiarity. Going by secret origins, Clark and Lex were barely aquantences.

[Kuwagaton]

I have no problem with anyone preferring businessman Lex over his Pre-Crisis counterpart, but I am sick of the lie that "Lex hated Superman for making him bald". Pre-Crisis Lex wasn't upset about the actual baldness, never was.

Depending on the writer he may have gotten angry about the fact he felt Superboy deliberately caused the baldness but that wasn't focused on the hair loss it was the idea Superboy had targeted Lex. It was made clear in later stories that part of the reason Lex was upset was that Superboy destroyed an experiment that had created artificial life. Even the original story showed that Lex had tried after that event to do good only for his actions to backfire and make Superboy look even more heroic. At worst the baldness was simply the first step in having Superman humiliate Lex for the rest of his life.

The Maggin version was streamlined but accurate down to the shirt Lex was wearing. But being streamlined and with the cover it had, it's a very easy and small misnomer people make.

I think it's worse that people read the reboot as Byrne showing that Krypton wasn't worth saving even though he fleshed it out himself and had Superman cry over it.


I can roll either way, especially since Siegel wrote the 1960 version, but I don't think Luthor has ever needed their grudge to be personal beyond what it is, and the idea that his life revolves around Superman (he literally worshipped Superboy before the accident) makes him a smaller person to me. And the Doom story that came shortly after at Marvel kind of owns that angle.

[daBronzeBomma]

Post-COIE likes:

- Lois is better written during this time than any time before or since, esp her finally knowing the secret for realsies (no more lame "love triangle for two" nonsense).

- The Kents get "Alfred" status and are permanent supporting characters for the bulk of this period

- Almost all Superverse civilian characters got better, more sophisticated writing

- John Henry Irons

- Superman family expansion

- Superman drawn bigger and more athletic across the board by virtually every artist during this time

- Bigger S-shield and longer, more dramatic Cape

- Antipathy with Darkseid ratcheted way up


Post-COIE Dislikes

Everything else

ESP the marginalization of Superman's immigrant/ refugee status, the nerfing of both his power and intellect, the one-sided distrust with Batman, Lana and Pete's uselessness, Luthor's loss of his sci-fi level intelligence, Milton Fine Brainiac, Matrix, etc