Post Crisis Changes You Liked and Didn't

[Kuwagaton]

I know. My first real exposure to the post-Crisis origin was a card series that came out in the mid-nineties. It has Clark lifting the truck over his head and said he was eight at the time. And in my mind I remember going "Huh, that's kind of late to be getting powers". Keep in mind, to me, Superman was shaped by what I saw on TV. Not the comics. Things like the Donner movies and cartoons. Which, up to that point, had never shown him any other way. Maybe it was the fact that they chose to duplicate the scene from the movie. IDK. It's weird how the things we see in our youth shape how we perceive certain things and they stay with us our whole lives. And, yes, I've heard all the arguments about the dangers of giving toddlers super powers and the logic part of my brain can understand that but the emotional part has a hard time accepting the idea of a Superman that at one time wasn't super. But, yeah, anybody who was lifting trucks over their head at eight has no business playing sports with ordinary humans. Seems like every other version but Byrne's understood that.

Well, Superman is supposed to be so fantastic that despite being able to crush mountains, he can pass for a regular man day to day in crowded offices and urban areas. As his powers increased from presumably the level of a regular baby to whichever points they really were with the bull and the truck, it's possible that he exhibited greater sensitivity than his alternate versions and that playing with regular humans so often actually helped with calibration.

As for why he would do it, there are more reasons to play football than physical challenge. I actually dislike the sport but my crush was into it, so I squeezed my dumb head right into one of those helmets.

[The Kid]

Disliked:
The birthing matrix having Clark technically born on Earth
Kents alive into Clark's adulthood.
Superboy history wiped out.
Legion History wiped out
Elimination of Kara Zor-El's existence
Elimination of General Zod and all other Phantom Zone criminals
"Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do"
Sports star high school Clark
Not-at-all-mild-mannered adult Clark
Cold and desolate Krypton that Superman doesn't care about
Too far nerfing of his powers
Superman/Batman frenemies
Milton Fine Brainiac

Liked:
Business man Lex (got better though when mad scientist was mixed in)
More independent Lois
Greater fleshed out Lana
Expanded Metropolis supporting cast/settings
Superman's costume (longer cape, larger S, slightly darker royal blue)
Superman and Wonder Woman as besties

Far more dislikes than likes. Its basically become this weird dichotomy with me. I grew up on the Superman that the post-Crisis reboot created. Byrne was gone by the time I came on board thus some details changed, but it was largely the same platform. And I loved it. I still love the memories of it and many specific storylines. But I've grown to almost hate the foundation as its just so counter-intuitive to Superman as I broadened my reach of his history and past stories and my tastes have changed.

You got most of what I would have said on this thread as well

[Robanker]

I'm going to stick to just the really early stuff when I post this, until just around Byrne leaving, so no mention of the marriage, death, return or triangle era in general.

Likes:

The Kents being alive into his adulthood. The entire JLA don't need to be the Dead Parents Association with Diana as honorable exception, and it's nice for Clark to have a little slice of home he can return to and recharge.
Lex being updated to a corrupt business man, the new (and sadly still contemporary) American nightmare to juxtapose Clark's American dream.
Addressing Luthor discovering his identity early in and then disregarding it, almost as if to tell the reader "just roll with it."
A more independent Lois Lane.
An expanded role for Lana Lang.
The costume redesign.
Toning down Superman's powers (no more towing a galaxy on a chain, which while fun, does invalidate the need for any other character in a shared universe)
Clark not being a complete wimp, thus being more believably someone Lois could develop feelings for in parallel to Superman.
Superman in Exile. It was a great read despite my misgivings about the events that got us there!
Cat Grant and Maggie Sawyer.
The art in general!

Dislikes:

Football star/popular Clark.
Superman and Batman at odds. Bring back the World's Finest.
No Legion of Superheroes or Superboy (though I prefer his time as the latter mostly involved with the former in the future).
Religious devotion to Clark as the only Kryptonian.
A poorly handled Supergirl.
No Krypto. I like dogs, sue me.
Toning down Superman's powers (probably the weakest he's ever been outside the Golden Age)
Birthing matrix/being born on Earth.
Sterile Krypton so we wouldn't feel bad about...
Clark essentially disregarding his heritage as little more than where he gets the ability to fly, i.e., "Superman is what I do, Clark is who I am."
Flippin' SLEEZ. It's a funny piece of trivia until you remember Barda was modeled after Kirby's wife.


I actually quite like Post-Crisis Superman, but it's got problems-- especially to be a starting point for an ongoing character. As an Earth One type deal? Great! But it took away so much that it required a big book of retcons and updates to fix later on.

[Kuwagaton]

That Sleez story sure was weird, but being such a big Kirby fan I can't imagine he would have done that story of there was any chance he believed Jack would be offended.

And I think the weakest Superman outside of the 40s would be in the New 52.

[Robanker]

That Sleez story sure was weird, but being such a big Kirby fan I can't imagine he would have done that story of there was any chance he believed Jack would be offended.

And I think the weakest Superman outside of the 40s would be in the New 52.

I don't want to turn this into a power scaling thing, but didn't he rip Doomsday in two like a cheap phone book? Byrne's Superman wasn't going to do that any time soon.

I think the Sleez thing just doesn't sit well with me because, well, it's just such an icky concept. We're going to have Superman mind controlled into starring in a cheap porn video with one of his colleague's wife who is based on the wife of one of our industry's most prolific talents. It's not really offensive so much as it's just kind of gross.

[Kuwagaton]

I agree that the story is unfortunate and unnecessary. But I'd argue that something like that doesn't become better or worse depending on who it's modeled on. There aren't necessarily things Clark deserves because of Gregory Peck or Lois deserves because of Mrs Siegel. Although the actual scene between Superman and Barda didn't happen either, Sleez is just an uncomfortable and inappropriate character for the series because of his debut.

Power scaling is enough of a problem for some people that I think this is one of the better threads to discuss it. My point was that just like most versions of Superman get stronger, so did this one. Post Crisis Superman was able to fly before the age of 22 for one thing and still didn't go by Superman until 25. So as a canon Superman, New 52 was the weakest in the first year of his run. Later it likely changes in favor of one or the other depending on certain comics, but to the idea of handling Doomsday, those characters also changed independently. So New 52 Superman was stronger against some but weaker against others like Mongul or Darkseid. Doomsday is a little tricky with changes because Soule wrote him very differently from the others, and Morrison might have kept it canon that he died fighting Doomsday as he did have the statue in Centennial Park.

[Stardust]

Sterile Krypton so we wouldn't feel bad about...

Ok i keep hearing this, so I have to ask.

Was this actually stated as the reason for the change?
Ok, I was an avid science fiction reader, and I always took it as a common, generic and lazy way to make aliens seen well alien.
But that would be f*d up.
Only because a civilization took a different or wrong path not to mourn them? Who came up with that?
And I think it is completely counter to the message the comics shouls have.

Clark essentially disregarding his heritage as little more than where he gets the ability to fly, i.e., "Superman is what I do, Clark is who I am."

To me those are all semantics and not important.
How someone acts is the most important part of the person because that's the part they show to the world.

Sentences like that only show, that Superman/Clark is unsure of himself at the moment and trying to find their footing. I think fans overblow their importance because they are nice and quotable.

A mature Superman doesn't need crutches like those mantras, but a young one can have them. As long as he doesn't always act accordin g them.

[superduperman]

Well, Superman is supposed to be so fantastic that despite being able to crush mountains, he can pass for a regular man day to day in crowded offices and urban areas. As his powers increased from presumably the level of a regular baby to whichever points they really were with the bull and the truck, it's possible that he exhibited greater sensitivity than his alternate versions and that playing with regular humans so often actually helped with calibration.

As for why he would do it, there are more reasons to play football than physical challenge. I actually dislike the sport but my crush was into it, so I squeezed my dumb head right into one of those helmets.

I'll be the first to admit it's a dumb complaint on my part. I'm not proud of it. Everyone is just a product of their upbringing and their experiences I suppose.

[Kuwagaton]

When I think about it, that sounds a lot like the way I feel about the larger shield, haha.

Ok i keep hearing this, so I have to ask.

Was this actually stated as the reason for the change?
Ok, I was an avid science fiction reader, and I always took it as a common, generic and lazy way to make aliens seen well alien.
But that would be f*d up.
Only because a civilization took a different or wrong path not to mourn them? Who came up with that?
And I think it is completely counter to the message the comics shouls have.



To me those are all semantics and not important.
How someone acts is the most important part of the person because that's the part they show to the world.

Sentences like that only show, that Superman/Clark is unsure of himself at the moment and trying to find their footing. I think fans overblow their importance because they are nice and quotable.

A mature Superman doesn't need crutches like those mantras, but a young one can have them. As long as he doesn't always act accordin g them.

That phrase is fixed to the comic Clark but he never actually said that. It came from the show inspired by the comics, but I feel like you might as well be quoting John O' Shea for Lex II then. The show that actually inspired the comic was Adventures of Superman and so there were real ties and callbacks, like in the name itself, Inspector Henderson, and LA City Hall serving as the Newstime building.

As far as Krypton goes, it's however you read it. Jor El tried to program Kal but there wasn't any harm or blame. Krypton was very different but not necessarily bad, which was clarified usually when it came up. Ironically we have a silver age based origin these days and Jor El looks worse.

[Hypestyle]

There was an edict for a long time after post crisis to simplify Superman and make him unique again which I liked and while Pre-Crisis Superman was my first Superman Post Crisis Superman was the version I loved.

Changes I liked:

1: Business Lex Luthor.

2: Lois Lane becoming more of a self efficient golden age style reporter it started in the Bronze Age but solidified in the Post Crisis Era.

3: Lois and Clark finally getting off the will they won't they pot and doing it.

4: Krypton I think the more alien Krypton emphasized the importance being raised on Earth had to developing Superman also the look of Kryptonians were cool IMO.

5: Jonathan and Martha I just love Clark having a place to go to be himself.

6: Speaking of which Clark being the real persona with a slightly bumbling Clark as a mask with the idealized man mask of Superman.

7: Kandor being a city of aliens love the concept of Kandor but think when it's Kryptonians it takes away from Superman.

8: The adding to the Super Family with Steel and Kon.

9: Phantom Zone being an alien prison I like a few Kryptonian villains like Zod and minions but prefer most to be non Kryptonian threats.

10: Linda Danvers, Kara is my idealized Supergirl but I loved Linda and wish she'd be brought back as Superwoman and the former Supergirl with it revealed she is Kara's adopted cousin.


Dislikes:

1: Clark not being Superboy in the Legion. I'm ok with Clark not being Superboy in Smallville but he should had traveled to the future and be him with the Legion like in the cartoon or something.

2: Batman and Superman's more antagonists relationship.

3: While eventually rectified Krypto and more importantly Kara missing from the mythos.

pretty much most of this. Jon and Martha being made younger, and alive, during his adult career helped stories a lot.


didn't like- (at the time) the apparent reduction of kryptonite to just green. obviously that's changed in recent years (or however long ago).

[Lasil]

Erasing 48 years of history.

[TheBatman]

LIKES:

1. Expansion of the Supporting cast
2. Lois Lane's characterization
3. How Superman was often drawn
4. No "Clark as Superboy"

DISLIKES:

1. "Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do"
2. John Byrne's depiction of Krypton
3. The Birthing matrix stuff
4. Bryne Superman not really caring about Krypton
5. Superman and Batman's Pre-2000s relationship
6. Pre Loeb/Turner Supergirl
7. Pre-Johns Brainiac
8. Pre-Johns General Zod
9. The JSA pre-existing Superman
10. Lex Luthor cribbing part of Kingpin's gimmick
11. Ma and Pa Kent being alive

[Kuwagaton]

It's still interesting to me how consistent the preferences are, but now I wonder: were any of the common or uncommon issues with concept fixed by execution for anyone?

[Sacred Knight]

I will say that Superman considering himself human, only really Clark Kent with Superman just being an act, not caring much for Krypton and its legacy, it was all done in a way that made sense. It was completely wrongheaded a move but it was done in a way that via the new origin you could understand why he'd feel that way, what from the slower growth of his powers, not knowing anything about his history and homeworld until much later on, stuff like that. I'll always stand by the opinion that those things shouldn't be the way you go about his origin in the first place but Byrne at least worked it so it could make some sense. To make a long story short, I consider the execution of the bad idea good, lol.

[Vordan]

Yeah the way PC Clark was made sense, I just wasn’t a fan of it as a concept. That it was pretty well-written is why so many people now accept it as default for Supes.