did you prefer darkseid as one of superman's villians?

[Darkseid Is]

To clarify, when I turn the page and Darkseid is there, I don't really give a crap because Superman can beat him up. But if I turn the page and DARKSEID is there and we don't know if the Man of Steel can defeat him or not or even better if he'll have to out-smart him instead of punching him or shooting lazer beams at him... that's a better story I think.

[manwhohaseverything]

From what I understand Kirby decided to connect Jimmy to the New Gods because there wasn't a writer for Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen and he didn't want to take anyone's job so when he jumped ship to DC he just took over that book. I understand what you mean but I think Superman is just as much as a god as Diana is. I mean he's even more than a god since he's more powerful than she is. I know what you mean by power levels as far as a story goes and believe me there are plenty of stories with Darkseid that I love that I don't think he was written powerful enough, but in the structure of things there should still be a food chain.

I was not talking about powerlevel. But perspectives, Diana's and other characters like her share a perspective of mortal world is that of a strict outsider. While, superman is both Kal el and Clark kent.he is culturally an insider. But is not like us, because of powers, sensory enhancements and birth. So, he is Both insider and outsider. Just like Billy.

In superman tas, itself Darkseid taunts Clark about making him a pariah(an outsider).

[Adekis]

From my perspective, Superman and his world, especially Jimmy, can intersect with Darkseid's world, but it shouldn't be treated as the same world. Superman's the Champion of the Ordinary Mortals, a position no New God has chosen to occupy. Scott Free comes closest, I suppose. Either way though, Scott isn't Darkseid's nemesis either, nor is Superman. In my mind, though Superman (Justice League accompanied or no) can fight Darkseid on occasion, there's only one person who is Darkseid's Fated Nemesis, his Foretold Undoing, the One Man Who Can End Darkseid Forever:



Orion, of course.

[HeroVladimir93]

From my perspective, Superman and his world, especially Jimmy, can intersect with Darkseid's world, but it shouldn't be treated as the same world. Superman's the Champion of the Ordinary Mortals, a position no New God has chosen to occupy. Scott Free comes closest, I suppose. Either way though, Scott isn't Darkseid's nemesis either, nor is Superman. In my mind, though Superman (Justice League accompanied or no) can fight Darkseid on occasion, there's only one person who is Darkseid's Fated Nemesis, his Foretold Undoing, the One Man Who Can End Darkseid Forever:




Orion, of course.

In my opinion, Orion has outlived his purpose as Darkseid's destined killer. In fact, when he accomplished that purpose, he made things worse for everyone and unwittingly started Final Crisis. It was Superman who ultimately saved the day and destroyed Darkseid forever, until the next Crisis, of course. Over the New 52, Orion was simply used to prop up or propel Superman and/or Wonder Woman forward. Orion acts like a bullheaded moron, only for Superman and Wonder Woman to demonstrate some common sense and save the problem of the month. Even the DC animated universe downplayed Orion's importance in the greater scheme of things.

[Adekis]

In my opinion, Orion has outlived his purpose as Darkseid's destined killer. In fact, when he accomplished that purpose, he made things worse for everyone and unwittingly started Final Crisis. It was Superman who ultimately saved the day and destroyed Darkseid forever, until the next Crisis, of course. Over the New 52, Orion was simply used to prop up or propel Superman and/or Wonder Woman forward. Orion acts like a bullheaded moron, only for Superman and Wonder Woman to demonstrate some common sense and save the problem of the month. Even the DC animated universe downplayed Orion's importance in the greater scheme of things.

All that basically reads to me as a betrayal of Kirby's original ideas, making Superman into the nemesis he was never meant to be for Darkseid and emphasizing that instead. Orion's a lot of things, and sometimes he's a hothead, but he shouldn't be written as a moron.

[Sacred Knight]

Yeah I would agree. I don't think Orion has outlived his purpose, I just think writers have just played fast and loose with the original Fourth World lore for a long time. As easy as it was to do that, it would be just as easy to go back to that and make Orion as important as he was intended to be. Nothing inherent about him today makes it that he no longer works as Darkseid's ultimate foil.

[HeroVladimir93]

Yeah I would agree. I don't think Orion has outlived his purpose, I just think writers have just played fast and loose with the original Fourth World lore for a long time. As easy as it was to do that, it would be just as easy to go back to that and make Orion as important as he was intended to be. Nothing inherent about him today makes it that he no longer works as Darkseid's ultimate foil.

Yes, that's understandable but the DC Animated Universe set up a pretty high bar regarding the Superman/Darkseid relationship and many media adaptations have tried to include Darkseid just to try their hand at portraying that relationship and setting up a good conflict between Superman and Darkseid. The fact of the matter is that people enjoyed the Superman/Darkseid relationship in Superman: The Animated Series, and the higher-ups at Warner and DC can hardly be faulted for using that relationship for dramatic tension and emotional stakes. You can talk about how this kind of stuff doesn't happen in the comics, but the DC Animated Universe gave us a formula that works. Superman and Darkseid have become mortal enemies, and people enjoy the interactions between them. That relationship isn't broken, and DC has no reason to fix that.

[Flash Gordon]

Darkseid isn't a Superman character, they can interact but Darkseid belongs to the Fourth World mythology.

Orion is the key to Darkseid's defeat.

[ssupes]

I do prefer the idea that darkseid is more a major bad for the justice league to face rather then just superman alone but that doesn't mean I'm not against them having the dynamic against each other in the sense that you have the one who wants to corrupt the universe with his will against the one who stands incorruptible and who represents the greatest ideals we offer. I do find that better then orion who has gone the way of drax really in a sense that outside the destiny to kill him there isn't much to their relationship asides from a note of a backstory really.

[Flash Gordon]

There's a lot more to Orion than his destiny to kill his father. He's one of the best characters in comicdom.

Darkseid isn't just an alien tyrant, he's a metaphysical being. The Fourth World is beyond anything we can imagine.

[Robanker]

No, but I do think Superman is someone who has foiled Darkseid enough that he'd know of Clark specifically. They crossover into each other's world but aren't a part of it. He should always be someone Darkseid finds particularly annoying when they cross, but not on his mind much otherwise.

The problem is that Darkseid is the big bad of the DCU and a threat Clark can beat, so writers want to use him. Elevate Mongul instead and really drive a conflict between him and Superman instead of always going back for one more turn on Uncle Uxas' Most Excellent Anti-life Speedwagon.

[Flash Gordon]

No, but I do think Superman is someone who has foiled Darkseid enough that he'd know of Clark specifically. They crossover into each other's world but aren't a part of it. He should always be someone Darkseid finds particularly annoying when they cross, but not on his mind much otherwise.

The problem is that Darkseid is the big bad of the DCU and a threat Clark can beat, so writers want to use him. Elevate Mongul instead and really drive a conflict between him and Superman instead of always going back for one more turn on Uncle Uxas' Most Excellent Anti-life Speedwagon.

Exactly this!

Superman is on Darkseid's radar, and someone he is annoyed by, but it isn't his arch enemy or anything akin.

[manwhohaseverything]

I am sorry but mongol is just a tyrant and in no way can be an ideological opponent for Kal el. he is typical greedy, power hungry asshole who is cocky. I love him. As for, orion killing Darkseid. That could still happen. Darkseid can still be orion's nemesis and superman's. I feel Darkseid has something to offer Kal(his kryptonian side) that his other villains simply don't. As for him being JL villain. Well brainiac has been that, so has lex.they are still superman villains.i don't think Darkseid superman connection should be severed.

[AdamFTF]

Well, Darkseid can pretty much be anyone and everyone's villain. He's been a Superman villain and a Wonder Woman villain. He's the one who turned Secret to evil in Young Justice. Heck, the first time I ever saw him was as a villain on reruns of Super Friends: The Legendary Super-Powers Show. Though his central place is as the antagonist of the Fourth World saga.

My issue with making Darkseid a Superman-specific villain is that it adds another villain that's liable to take over most of the mythos if you let him. I know people want Superman to be "epic", but if the only villains who are allowed to be important are Lex Luthor, Braniac and Darkseid it just supports the old idea that Superman doesn't really have a rogues gallery.

[Paradox_Nihil]

It's very hard to argue when everyone has different ideas about a character, depending on which representation first caught his/her imagination. I would always go with Kirby, since all of the Fourth World would have been his intellectual property if the things regarding creator rights had been in the early '70s as they are today. So, the simple answer is that, no, Darkseid is not the Superman's foe, or even specifically a Superman's foe.

But, that said, I think Starlin's interpratation of the Kirby's world is not good at all, and I am being very, very, VERY polite here. The problem is that many subsequent interpratations built heavily on Starlin's work, mainly Cosmic Odyssey. For example, I've recently re-watched the second season of the Justice League animated series, and Lightray is characterized as "worse than the Flash" (in his attraction to women, of course). That's Starlin's Lightray, which means he is actually Starfox. Which raises the question about Darkseid and his relation to Thanos, which again raises a new question about DC's need to react to the popularity of that Marvel character, and so on. Darkseid is the only one that can compete, because Thanos was basically his clone when he was created. We could go on for thousands of words on this.

I have to agree that, sometimes, Darkseid has been portrayed very well, even excellently. But I don't like when a whole world of characters is sacrificed for the sake of one, which means, in this case, that writers mainly use the Fourth World characters to highlight how awesome Darkseid is. And any writer with enough skills could make Desaad one of the greatest enemies of Superman without problem. The same shadowy, scheming approach that could make a hell out of Superman's life. You don't need Darkseid for that. But, since superheroes comics are still in (huge) part power fantasies, it's very difficult for their general public to accept that someone evil is way above Superman's league. Therefore, writers mainly comply with that sentiment, I think.