did you prefer darkseid as one of superman's villians?

[HeroVladimir93]

Clark was right

Superman had my sympathies during that episode and Batman behaved like a real jerk. He even tells Superman to "cry me a river." Oh, I see Batman. It's wrong to dismiss your own failures and mistakes but dismissing other people's failures and mistakes is fair game? Batman should consider himself lucky Superman didn't decide to demonstrate the effects of Kryptonian heat vision on the human brain.

As for Darkseid, he was definitely one the better characters in the DCAU and his relationship with Superman was one of the most engaging stories the DCAU had to offer.

I see Darkseid and the rest of the New Gods as some of the greatest comic book characters ever created, and definitely my absolute favorite Kirby creation. The 4th World saga is a masterpiece. And out of all of the DC characters, I see them connect with Superman the most.

They are absolutely their own sphere, but they also absolutely have some profound connections with Superman.

While Orion and Darkseid are true arch enemies, Superman represents EVERYTHING Darkseid is trying to wipe out in the multiverse. They are diametrically oppsing points of view and THAT is the reason why I fully accept Darkseid as a Superman villain. Yes he's a Justice League Villain, Yes as far as Darkseid is concerned the greatest threat to his dominance of the multiverse are the Gods of New Genesis, they are afterall on the same plane of existence as him. But, of all the "mortals" Superman is the one who can consistently rally the forces of free will against Darkseid's oppression.

The editors really need to make sure the authors of the comics havea thorough grasp on the philosphies of the characters. Using Darkseid as a primarily physical threat against superman misses the point of the character entirely. Darkseid very rarely will resort to physical violence on a personal level. He is fundamentally a corrupting and enslaving influence and works through very powerful subordinates.

Yes if Superman does fight Darkseid, Superman should ultimately get defeated, yes Superman should be able to do some damage to Darkseid and it should shock and astound Darkseid, but ultimately even Superman should be no match against him. Where Superman does his most damage to Darkseid is in the hope he instills in people throughough all of existence. Its Superman's embodiment of truth and justice and hope that threatens to undo everything Darkseid has worked on for eons. A mere fisticuff between these 2 entirely misses the point. Orion is the one to fight Darkseid on that level: Astro Force v. Omega Force. But when it comes down to freeing people from the thrall of the Anti-life Equation, that's Superman all the way.

Also, The New Gods are supposed to inspire Superman. The Super City of New Genesis is the one place where Superman should feel entirely at home, surrounded by people who match and advance his own skills. New Genesis is where Superman goes to rest in peace. In my mind New Genesis is Superman's Valhalla and the New Gods represent the next Step in Superman's evolution. This is why I see them as being linked to Superman yet also standing as their own creation. It is a relationship very similar to the relationship that Superman has with the LOSH, though the LOSH is more of a personal relationship, the theme of Superman finally finding a place to belong is consistent.

The only upside I can see with Darkseid's relationship with Orion is that they are related by blood and that they are destined to kill each other. That's it. The only thing binding them is an ancient prophecy. In my opinion, Darkseid's relationship with Superman runs deeper and gets a lot more personal because of the things Darkseid does to Superman, such as brainwashing him or Supergirl. Superman: The Animated Series established a pretty high standard on how to portray both Superman and Darkseid.

As for Superman taking a place among the New Gods, it's not a bad idea on paper, but it would feel as if Superman would be rejecting his place on Earth simply because hanging around with people with the same powers and abilities would feel "easier." Yes, he can be with people who have the same responsibilities and burdens as him but the people of New Genesis are not Lois, Jimmy, Perry, Jonathan or Martha. They are not even Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern or Flash. Superman doesn't have the same personal connection with them, the same way he is connected with the people of Earth.

[Mutant God]

For those saying no/hes an JL villain, should Superman have an arch-rival/nemesis that represents Darkseid/Darkseid's planet?

[Jon Clark]

For those saying no/hes an JL villain, should Superman have an arch-rival/nemesis that represents Darkseid/Darkseid's planet?

No, Apokolips and New Genesis should be more of an independent thing. They exist in the DCU and therefore they interact with Earth heroes, but they shouldn't have any personal ties to any specific non Fourth World characters.

[Kuwagaton]

Byrne invented two of his own, Amazing Grace and Sleez, for that idea. I like Fourth World being big enough for stuff like that in addition to the two planets being impossible to reach by flight or whatever. There should be buffer characters and a certain distance to major characters maintained for the most part.

If I ever won the lotto, I would put out a lot of money to commission a part 2 of that wackiness Neal Adams was getting at. It's completely out of continuity for those who wouldn't be interested.

And while I agree that making Darkseid a sparring partner is missing the point, I never want Superman losing his will to lay them hands.

[Ascended]

I see Darkseid and the rest of the New Gods as some of the greatest comic book characters ever created, and definitely my absolute favorite Kirby creation. The 4th World saga is a masterpiece. And out of all of the DC characters, I see them connect with Superman the most.

They are absolutely their own sphere, but they also absolutely have some profound connections with Superman.

While Orion and Darkseid are true arch enemies, Superman represents EVERYTHING Darkseid is trying to wipe out in the multiverse. They are diametrically oppsing points of view and THAT is the reason why I fully accept Darkseid as a Superman villain. Yes he's a Justice League Villain, Yes as far as Darkseid is concerned the greatest threat to his dominance of the multiverse are the Gods of New Genesis, they are afterall on the same plane of existence as him. But, of all the "mortals" Superman is the one who can consistently rally the forces of free will against Darkseid's oppression.

The editors really need to make sure the authors of the comics havea thorough grasp on the philosphies of the characters. Using Darkseid as a primarily physical threat against superman misses the point of the character entirely. Darkseid very rarely will resort to physical violence on a personal level. He is fundamentally a corrupting and enslaving influence and works through very powerful subordinates.

Yes if Superman does fight Darkseid, Superman should ultimately get defeated, yes Superman should be able to do some damage to Darkseid and it should shock and astound Darkseid, but ultimately even Superman should be no match against him. Where Superman does his most damage to Darkseid is in the hope he instills in people throughough all of existence. Its Superman's embodiment of truth and justice and hope that threatens to undo everything Darkseid has worked on for eons. A mere fisticuff between these 2 entirely misses the point. Orion is the one to fight Darkseid on that level: Astro Force v. Omega Force. But when it comes down to freeing people from the thrall of the Anti-life Equation, that's Superman all the way.

Also, The New Gods are supposed to inspire Superman. The Super City of New Genesis is the one place where Superman should feel entirely at home, surrounded by people who match and advance his own skills. New Genesis is where Superman goes to rest in peace. In my mind New Genesis is Superman's Valhalla and the New Gods represent the next Step in Superman's evolution. This is why I see them as being linked to Superman yet also standing as their own creation. It is a relationship very similar to the relationship that Superman has with the LOSH, though the LOSH is more of a personal relationship, the theme of Superman finally finding a place to belong is consistent.

Well said and agreed.

Darkseid isn't *anyone's* solo villain. He's far bigger than a single rogues gallery, as is the threat of Apokolips itself. But in the hierarchy of the DCU, the Super-verse is close neighbors with the Fourth World and that's where the majority of the overlap between New God and superhero should happen. So to that end, we should see Clark dealing with the New Gods more often than other heroes but the Fourth World saga is, really, a bigger story than even Superman. What Clark should see most of the time are the ripples of Darkseid's scheming. That's it, just the side hustle, and that stuff is still extinction level in scope. But the New Gods don't have a book 99% of the time, so it usually comes down to Clark and his corner of the DCU to showcase the dangers and plots of the Anti-God and his minions.

[DochaDocha]

Clark was right

Actually, Batman was right. Darkseid even says he died.

The irony in all this? Well, consider the following Bruce Timm quote:

I, personally, may have gone a little overboard in that area, as I wrote the entire Superman / Darkseid verbal thrown-down scene in 'Twilight' myself—including the notoriously over-the-top ‘greasy smear on my fist’ line—I even wrote his, ‘Y’know, Bruce, you’re not always right,’ line, allowing him to one-up Batman (my ‘favorite’ character, remember), in one of the rarest instances in the entire DCAU canon.

So, Bruce Timm implied that Superman was right, and that Darkseid probably survived. However, it later turned out that Darkseid died. So, in the DCAU, even Bruce Timm's word isn't law, but Batman's is. Fictional character Batman not only ended up being correct, but the guy who wrote the dialogue ended up being wrong. That's the DCAU for you...

[Korath]

Seems relevant for this thread : https://www.cbr.com/tom-taylor-tease...eased-hashtag/

[magha_regulus]

Seems relevant for this thread : https://www.cbr.com/tom-taylor-tease...eased-hashtag/

Wooow! How many times are they going to kill Darkseid? He's got to be the New God of both evil and resurrection at this point. It sounds interesting though.