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  1. #211
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Anybody more recent and specifically on the DC side of the fence?
    And it's not like there aren't plenty of notable male villains to spare when one of them is reformed or give more moral grayness. We are lacking in unrepentent female villains of notoriety. Ivy was the major example we had, especially in Gotham where she is arguably the most powerful villain. I'm not even saying she should be any more evil than the male villains or not have her share of Pet the Dog moments, but downplaying her darker tendencies and even erasing them from canon is a step too far.

    I don't recognize an Ivy who feels guilty over believing she killed four dudes who were willing to kill her first and drew guns. Yeah, she has genuine love for Harley (which she can express in unhealthy and abusive ways) and a soft spot for kids, but no way would she be such a wuss. Though on the other end of the spectrum, I don't recognize that one issue of Detective where she made snuff films. That was OTT even for Dini's Ivy.
    That was Poison Ivy's best comic though! It was super cute! Its also not that far from her second appearance where she transformed her servant into a tree person.
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  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    That was Poison Ivy's best comic though!
    Not by a long shot.

  3. #213
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't recognize an Ivy who feels guilty over believing she killed four dudes who were willing to kill her first and drew guns. Yeah, she has genuine love for Harley (which she can express in unhealthy and abusive ways) and a soft spot for kids, but no way would she be such a wuss. Though on the other end of the spectrum, I don't recognize that one issue of Detective where she made snuff films. That was OTT even for Dini's Ivy.
    And King's response to just basically say that Ivy has never killed anyone just to make up for it was too much a step in the opposite direction. It just didn't make sense.

  4. #214
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    So, I have to say that I absolutely love the trailer, and I've watched it several times.

    1. I love the amount of attention Wonder Woman's rogues received. Dr. Poison looks maniacal, depraved and sadistic. I love her! Honestly, I think Wonder Woman's villains have really suffered design wise, but in this preview, I love the look of all the rogues including Cheetah. I've always preferred the more monstrous Cheetah instead of the sexy, Pantene model Cheetah. And the Silver Swan design was greatly improved upon from the Robinson comics.

    2.The "origin" flashbacks looks like they were included as a very strong and not subtle, at all, allusion to the Wonder Woman movie that everyone loved just two years ago. Even the music seems to try to hint to the movie. I also really like Diana's personality in this from what we've seen in the trailer. She's witty with a playful sass about her. I like her chemistry with Steve Trevor and the emphasis on bullets and bracelets and the lasso. Judging from the trailer, the action sequences and the earlier photos, I am surmising that Diana doesn't get her sword into the final battle or the final scene in the movie which would be a okay with me.

    3. Lastly, I'm not worried about the sales of this DTV, at all. I can't speak for other Targets, but my target had an entire Wonder Woman section during the time of her movie, and it was filled with the Special Edition Wonder Woman animated film. The movie seemed to fly off the shelf, and the movie was almost a decade. This is a brand new film, the movie comes out in less than a year, and it is getting a special steelbook edition. This movie should sell perfectly fine.

  5. #215
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Atomic Skull has recently reformed. There's also Ares himself in the Wonder Woman comics. The guy really hasn't been a straight up villain in a while.
    Completely fair on Ares. Kind of a weird forum for me to forget him lol

    Atomic Skull though is such a relatively minor character though that his reformation can be done and DC wouldn't be losing a valuable villainous asset at all. Really, does anyone care to the extent they would if we got permanent reformations for Lex, Brainiac or even Metalllo? Probably not. And even still, we still have a ton of notable male villains left over. Top tier female villains of any notoriety are rare to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    That was Poison Ivy's best comic though! It was super cute! Its also not that far from her second appearance where she transformed her servant into a tree person.
    Turning her servant into a tree monster was more an example of how callous she can be with human life, and I think is a level of evil suitable to her.
    Getting sadistic sexual pleasure from feeding people to her plants is too gross for her. And the cheesecake in that issue was ott bad. Dini is capable of much better, including with Ivy, so that issue was a serious let down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And King's response to just basically say that Ivy has never killed anyone just to make up for it was too much a step in the opposite direction. It just didn't make sense.
    Yeah, I don't know if that was his plan all along or if was a (needless) course correction after people disliked Ivy killing anyone, but it's really not beneficial to her character to lose that much agency as an antagonist.

  6. #216
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Completely fair on Ares. Kind of a weird forum for me to forget him lol

    Atomic Skull though is such a relatively minor character though that his reformation can be done and DC wouldn't be losing a valuable villainous asset at all. Really, does anyone care to the extent they would if we got permanent reformations for Lex, Brainiac or even Metalllo? Probably not. And even still, we still have a ton of notable male villains left over. Top tier female villains of any notoriety are rare to begin with.



    Turning her servant into a tree monster was more an example of how callous she can be with human life, and I think is a level of evil suitable to her.
    Getting sadistic sexual pleasure from feeding people to her plants is too gross for her. And the cheesecake in that issue was ott bad. Dini is capable of much better, including with Ivy, so that issue was a serious let down.



    Yeah, I don't know if that was his plan all along or if was a (needless) course correction after people disliked Ivy killing anyone, but it's really not beneficial to her character to lose that much agency as an antagonist.
    I’ve pointing this out for years. Any female villain that gets any degree of popularity gets converted(I would say nerfed ) into antihero “not that bad” status. It’s almost like people are uncomfortable with evil female characters. It’s why their aren’t really any female villains on the scale of the Joker or Darkseid. It’s why you really have to stretch into some really deep cuts to include female villains in “top ten villains lists. I don’t have a problem with some female villains going this route (Catwoman) but I feel it’s detrimental when it’s the defacto way to write female villains.

  7. #217
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    As many people, including myself, have pointed out multiple times on the Batman boards, Ivy was introduced with the "woman wronged" aspect from the get go. And since the 70s, she has been depicted as teaming up with the good guys. Even Dini who prefers Villain Ivy gave her a chance at redemption in BTAS at the end of House and Garden, which he probably thought at the time might be her final appearance in the DCAU. The DCAU based follow-up comics even extended upon this idea revealing the 'TNBA Ivy' to be a clone created by 'BTAS Ivy', who did retire from crime after House and Garden and married and settled down with Alec Holland in the Amazon.

    Being comics' most prominent female environmentalist, Ivy was always destined to eventually grow (no pun) into an anti-heroine, regardless of the Harley pairing. She can't 'evolve' into a Joker, Luthor or Darkseid-type as that would take away from the rich dimensions that various creators have given her over decades.

    And the lesser said about Dini's Harvest comic, the better lol.

  8. #218
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    As many people, including myself, have pointed out multiple times on the Batman boards, Ivy was introduced with the "woman wronged" aspect from the get go. And since the 70s, she has been depicted as teaming up with the good guys. Even Dini who prefers Villain Ivy gave her a chance at redemption in BTAS at the end of House and Garden, which he probably thought at the time might be her final appearance in the DCAU. The DCAU based follow-up comics even extended upon this idea revealing the 'TNBA Ivy' to be a clone created by 'BTAS Ivy', who did retire from crime after House and Garden and married and settled down with Alec Holland in the Amazon.

    Being comics' most prominent female environmentalist, Ivy was always destined to eventually grow (no pun) into an anti-heroine, regardless of the Harley pairing. She can't 'evolve' into a Joker, Luthor or Darkseid-type as that would take away from the rich dimensions that various creators have given her over decades.

    And the lesser said about Dini's Harvest comic, the better lol.
    Ivy didn't seem to become really popular until the more villainous DCAU portrayal made her a household name and downplayed the pining after Batman stuff to make her equal force to be reckoned with along with the male villains, if arguably more dangerous than most of them. Obviously people responded to that on some level. Even Gaiman's earlier attempt to revamp her, while keeping the wronged woman aspect, still kept her creepy. House and Garden portrays her as sympathetic, but she still kidnapped a man and stole his "certain raw materials" so she can make a creepy monster family "on her terms." She's sad at the end because the plan fell apart and she cannot conceive of a way to make that happiness happen in a non-warped way. Even the Ivy clone portrays a detached view of her relationship with Harley. She made it to partly to keep Harley company, but has no problem ditching Harley to go start a life elsewhere and doesn't seem to consider Harley's feelings, like how she's essentially being lied to. She is capable of love in her own way, it's just put through a warped filter. She doesn't even seem particularly bothered by the Ivy clone dying in front of her in that comic. Or presumably that this Ivy clone is committing crimes, including murder, to cover for her.

    Nobody is asking for her specifically to reach Joker or Darkseid levels, and some versions of Lex are roughly equivalent to some versions of her in terms of being sympathetic and redeemable. I regard her as more callous and vengeful to specific individuals, not casually murdering people left and right for kicks. She should probably be around the same level as Freeze, the Riddler, the Penguin or Two-Face. The Bat-villains in general need to be toned from being slaughter factories, but no need to target her specifically to take the "woman scorned" thing too far and make her only a victim who has never dished out disproportionate retribution or committed any wrongdoing.

    Comics could probably stand to use more environmentalist characters who denounce her extreme methods and distance themselves from her. Batman's issue with her has never been her basic crusade, more the extra step in feeding people to her monstrous vagina plants.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 08-10-2019 at 10:27 AM.

  9. #219
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    BTAS was the first time Ivy was adapted to another medium. It was the first chance she got at a bigger spotlight, so it obviously boosted her popularity (that and the fact that her BTAS character design was inspired by MGM's 'Red' character and Jessica Rabbit).

    BTAS Ivy was on the more extreme end of the morality spectrum Ivy is usually depicted in. So even in a more 'sympathetic' light like in House and Garden and the 'Flower Girl' story, she is depicted as more callous than several other iterations.

    Still though, it is very telling that whenever women writers get an opportunity to offer their own take on the character, Ann Nocenti, Gail Simone, Amy Chu, Jody Hauser, Hope Larson, Shea Fontana and the Benson sisters just to name a few, Ivy tends to become much more sympathetic in nature, (as an aside, it's interesting that more women have had a chance at writing Poison Ivy than Wonder Woman herself).

    At this point in time, Ivy has a very high awareness level among even non-comic book audiences and is still more recognizable than Swamp Thing (coz she gets name-checked in mainstream pop-culture media like America's Next Top Model and is one of the most popular choices for Halloween costumes/cosplay among women). So it makes sense why so many environmentally aware individuals got behind her, viewing her as misunderstood and a 'Cassandra' of sorts, warning us of our own hubris for decades. Her pairing with Harley Quinn further diversified her fanbase to include more individuals from other marginalized groups as well. I don't think putting her in a more antagonistic light against a more traditionally heroic environmental themed character is going to go down well (especially if said character is male).
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 08-10-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  10. #220
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I don’t mind if she has a soft spot for Harley or children l. However, she can still have her evil side.
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  11. #221
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    BTAS was the first time Ivy was adapted to another medium. It was the first chance she got at a bigger spotlight, so it obviously boosted her popularity (that and the fact that her BTAS character design was inspired by MGM's 'Red' character and Jessica Rabbit).

    BTAS Ivy was on the more extreme end of the morality spectrum Ivy is usually depicted in. So even in a more 'sympathetic' light like in House and Garden and the 'Flower Girl' story, she is depicted as more callous than several other iterations.
    Naturally it's going to boost her popularity, it's a wider audience and introduced her to a whole new generation. Many fans of which, who has that as their introduction to the character, are going to be attached to her being more villainous and found her a cool female character for that very reason.

    She was originally introduced to provide a new female antagonist after Catwoman was becoming more anti-heroic. Some of her earlier appearances do feature her turning her loyal servant into a monstrous tree creature who is in constant pain because Batman pissed her off, black mailing Wayne enterprise employees, and sadistically toying with Bullock when he's her hostage during that anniversary issue. Even the more sympathetic portrayals by John Francis Moore (which I really like) have her killing people she feels deserve it without much remorse. That's a far cry from being afraid of the Riddler (?!) and attacking armed gunmen as a threat display or something and feeling guilty about maybe killing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Still though, it is very telling that whenever women writers get an opportunity to offer their own take on the character, Ann Nocenti, Gail Simone, Amy Chu, Jody Hauser, Hope Larson, Shea Fontana and the Benson sisters just to name a few, Ivy tends to become much more sympathetic in nature, (as an aside, it's interesting that more women have had a chance at writing Poison Ivy than Wonder Woman herself).
    That is pretty interesting. I only have knowledge of the Nocenti and Simone issues (and Nocenti never does anything for me, but I like what I've heard of Simone's use of her), so I'd have to check those out. I'm not necessarily sure that just because they write her more sympathetically it means it's going to resonate with everyone. King's retcon to his own story felt off, and that was done with the intention of absolving her of any wrongdoing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    At this point in time, Ivy has a very high awareness level among even non-comic book audiences and is still more recognizable than Swamp Thing (coz she gets name-checked in mainstream pop-culture media like America's Next Top Model and is one of the most popular choices for Halloween costumes/cosplay among women). So it makes sense why so many environmentally aware individuals got behind her, viewing her as misunderstood and a 'Cassandra' of sorts, warning us of our own hubris for decades. Her pairing with Harley Quinn further diversified her fanbase to include more individuals from other marginalized groups as well. I don't think putting her in a more antagonistic light against a more traditionally heroic environmental themed character is going to go down well (especially if said character is male).
    For the Halloween thing, a significant portion of those people probably enjoy dressing up as a fun villainous female character, same with anyone who goes out for Halloween as Maleficent (pre movie) or Queen Beryl. That's not necessarily a sign that she should be moved away from being an antagonist when it's one of the reasons she became popular.

    Both the environmental stuff and relationship with Harley (which was pretty abusive in its own way) involve white washing in some way. With all of DC's reboots and retcons, it seems now Ivy's morally questionable actions in her pursuit of justice (up to an including murder, kidnapping, property damage, assault and brain washing) are either being downplayed or erased. I think getting there in a more organic way and reconciling them with her darker portrayals could potentially be interesting though. But even with Magneto, whose morality is all over the damn place depending on the writer, they never erase the fact that he can be a real bastard and has done some monstrous things. Whereas we have Twitter people freaking out over Ivy killing some dude who were threatening her with guns, not even passive bystanders.

    If such a new hero was introduced, I agree that it would be better to use another woman over a man. Or it may not be a super human at all, but some civilian characters who resemble real life environmentalists. It'd be nice to see some regular people be positive examples as agents of change in the DCU. Maybe some of the kids Ivy sheltered in NML could be used in this capacity? She set them on that path, but they've come to realize she isn't always going about things the right way,

  12. #222
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Naturally it's going to boost her popularity, it's a wider audience and introduced her to a whole new generation. Many fans of which, who has that as their introduction to the character, are going to be attached to her being more villainous and found her a cool female character for that very reason.
    It doesn't matter as times change. The comics in the 90s already had started going strongly in the Ivy as 'anti-villain/anti-heroine' route because that was the decade environmental issues started coming to the forefront of media and society. Her depiction in BTAS/TNBA was more simpler and harkening back to an older '40s/60s' femme fatale trope vs. the more nuanced way she was portrayed in say, her 1997 one-shot or in No Man's Land.

    She was originally introduced to provide a new female antagonist after Catwoman was becoming more anti-heroic.
    Well, they weren't very consistent with that as in one of her first appearances in the 70s, she was already teaming up with Catwoman to take down the more villainous Madame Zodiac.

    Some of her earlier appearances do feature her turning her loyal servant into a monstrous tree creature who is in constant pain because Batman pissed her off,
    Which again was a step back from a previous 70's story where her man/tree creature Redwood was none other than the man who seduced and exploited her in her teen years, a Marc LeGrande (later retconned by Neil Gaiman to be Jason Woodrue).

    Even the more sympathetic portrayals by John Francis Moore (which I really like) have her killing people she feels deserve it without much remorse. That's a far cry from being afraid of the Riddler (?!) and attacking armed gunmen as a threat display or something and feeling guilty about maybe killing them.
    Okay this I agree with. King probably went for Saint Ivy just to set up her role in Heroes in Crisis.

    That is pretty interesting. I only have knowledge of the Nocenti and Simone issues (and Nocenti never does anything for me, but I like what I've heard of Simone's use of her), so I'd have to check those out. I'm not necessarily sure that just because they write her more sympathetically it means it's going to resonate with everyone. King's retcon to his own story felt off, and that was done with the intention of absolving her of any wrongdoing.
    Simone's Ivy story (Batgirl Annual #2) is one of the very best Ivy stories I've ever read, with an interesting explanation for Pamela's inconsistent characterisation. Nocenti's Batman/Poison Ivy: Cast Shadows is one of her best works IMO, and very recently a fan film was made based on the book (but the original book is more layered so I definitely recommend checking it out too).



    A note that none of these women went to the level of absolving Ivy of all crimes like King, but under their pens, she was more nuanced and multi-dimensional than most male writers (there are some exceptions of course like Rucka, Snyder and John Francis Moore). Amy Chu's Poison Ivy: Cycle of Life and Death mini-series in particular did a good job trying to reconcile all of Ivy's disparate qualities together (seductress, scientist, loving mother, eco-terrorist and murderess, and faithful friend).

    Both the environmental stuff and relationship with Harley (which was pretty abusive in its own way)
    Again, the abuse angle was brought in by Dini because he fetishized Eevill Ivy to a large degree (the nadir of which turned out to be the Harvest story). While he was no doubt responsible for raising her profile, the direction he set for her is questionable at best.

    ...involve white washing in some way.
    Yes, when actual women or creative teams where one partner was a woman (like Palmiotti/Conner) started tackling the lesbian relationship, they turned Ivy into a far more loving partner to Harley than the Joker. And that's fine as both women are abuse victims suffering trauma at the hands of men, so there was cathartic value in transforming the relationship into something more healthy and healing.

    But even with Magneto, whose morality is all over the damn place depending on the writer, they never erase the fact that he can be a real bastard and has done some monstrous things. Whereas we have Twitter people freaking out over Ivy killing some dude who were threatening her with guns, not even passive bystanders.
    On first glance, Magneto and Ivy may seem very similar, but on closer inspection, you realize their agendas are primarily appealing to two very different demographics. Magneto is still a straight white man despite his in-universe "minority" status, and even Holocaust survivors were granted sympathy, respect and better mainstream portrayals pretty early on after the end of WW2 horrors, so while still relatable, there was scope to play him off more heroic characters (especially Jewish mutants) like Kitty Pryde.

    OTOH, women who were unapologetic for not conforming to the norm, be it in terms of sexuality, behaviour, opinion, and demeanour, were demonized for the longest time. Add to that, how Ivy came to represent environmental issues, possibly the most pressing topic the world faces today, is an abuse survivor in her own right, is a woman making a place for herself in the male-dominated STEM field, and is now an LGBT+ individual, made her appealing and resonant in a myriad of ways to a number of different marginalized groups.

    Hence the push on Twitter to keep her firmly on more heroic/anti-heroic grounds. It can get a little extreme, but I guess that too is a reaction to most of these Ivy fans (mostly women) being told to shut up by Comics Gate Keepers who feel Poison Ivy is yet another element of fandom "being taken away from them", when in fact there are definite biases against women entrenched in the character's earlier portrayal due to more sexist views in the 20th Century that need addressing.

    If such a new hero was introduced, I agree that it would be better to use another woman over a man. Or it may not be a super human at all, but some civilian characters who resemble real life environmentalists. It'd be nice to see some regular people be positive examples as agents of change in the DCU. Maybe some of the kids Ivy sheltered in NML could be used in this capacity? She set them on that path, but they've come to realize she isn't always going about things the right way,
    In the 00s, most of the Robinson Park orphans were murdered in a very weak Gotham Knights story arc by AJ Lieberman, and they've never been seen since.

    However, the "Sporelings" or flower/plant daughters that Ivy created in her mini-series could play the same role.

  13. #223
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Okay, guys, let's get this back on track.

    Wonder Woman: Bloodlines, not Poison Ivy. There's a whole Bat-forum for that
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  14. #224
    Amazing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Looks good so far. They seem to be bringing together elements from a bunch of different continuities, which is great. I always feel like there's something missing even in the best WW runs. This could truly be the definitive Wonder Woman story.

    Cheetah looks hideous though. For a moment I thought it was Sebastian.

  15. #225
    Incredible Member Amazon Swordsman's Avatar
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    I do like the more beastly cheetah. You could say that it’s an upgraded, evolved version of her “sexy” form. Ain’t that something? The more hideous she gets, the stronger/faster she becomes.

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