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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But, again, its been done dozens of times before already. And I don't think that them not being the focus would actually diminish the event. There have even been plenty of events that did not focus on either Batman or Superman. Remember COIE? And Identity Crisis? And 52? And Blackest Night? I mean, yeah, Batman and Superman were there for some of those events, but I don't know if anyone could say they were the focus of said storylines. In at least a few of them, they were either ancillary or secondary characters or not even present at all. It can work, is all I'm saying.
    The other events you mentioned though are not "Civil War" - the basic premise of which is that all the heroes (or close to) split up, pick sides and go at it. These days, you also wouldn't have an event like "COIE" where Batman is so marginalized (look at "Final Crisis" - it shows how DC's priorities has shifted) Bats and Supes has been mentioned enough times in-universe that they're the pillars of the superhuman community, that it would be difficult for them to not have large roles.

    I'd actually be more into a smaller version of CW that makes more sense and doesn't have to involve every single hero. Stories like "The Janus Directive" or "Rann/Thanagar War" were able to involve a large number of characters and steer clear of the Trinity in a way that was organic to the premise.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    The other events you mentioned though are not "Civil War" - the basic premise of which is that all the heroes (or close to) split up, pick sides and go at it. These days, you also wouldn't have an event like "COIE" where Batman is so marginalized (look at "Final Crisis" - it shows how DC's priorities has shifted) Bats and Supes has been mentioned enough times in-universe that they're the pillars of the superhuman community, that it would be difficult for them to not have large roles.
    But again, Batman and Superman fighting each other has been done a million times before. And they aren't necessarily the only major pillars of heroism in the DCU. I mean, in-universe, Wonder Woman commands about as much respect as they do. So, why not have it be Batman vs. Wonder Woman or Wonder Woman vs. Superman. I'm just saying that it can be done without falling into the same old Batman vs. Superman trope.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I see a lot of people positing the same old Batman/Superman rivalry. I mean, does it HAVE to be Batman vs. Superman? I think we've seen enough of Batman and Superman fighting each other. Why not have the main beef be between two other heroes and have Bruce and Clark on the sidelines deciding how to help bring about peace? Who else could have a conflict between them that would spark a major split in the superhero community?

    Iím with you. A Batman vs Superman led-event would be so unimaginative. I donít care how popular they are. Save it! We can kind of get an idea what their stances would be like. Letís get other viewpoints in this thing. Letís elevate other characters. I love the idea of Green Arrow being front and center of an event like this. Heís never involved with anything.
    Imagine being proud to have negative traits. I canít relate.

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  4. #64
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But again, Batman and Superman fighting each other has been done a million times before. And they aren't necessarily the only major pillars of heroism in the DCU. I mean, in-universe, Wonder Woman commands about as much respect as they do. So, why not have it be Batman vs. Wonder Woman or Wonder Woman vs. Superman. I'm just saying that it can be done without falling into the same old Batman vs. Superman trope.
    Of course I get your point, I am just responding to your point with my own thought - I'm not saying it's impossible with the right writer and the right concept, just that one can't overlook a comic event based on the concept of "Civil War" without Batman and Superman having key roles.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 02-06-2019 at 11:11 PM.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Of course I get your point, I am just responding to your point with my own thought - I'm not saying it's impossible with the right writer and the right concept, just that one can't overlook a comic event based on the concept of "Civil War" without Batman and Superman having key roles.
    I agree a huge schism in the heroic community would, almost of necessity, require the Trinity to be involved. Nothing of note happens in that community without those three knowing it, approving it, and having a hand in it to some degree.

    But you don't have to draw the line of division along them. You could have a split in the community, with the Trinity on the sidelines playing the role of mediators trying to find common ground and make peace. That seems a natural place for Diana and Clark to find themselves, and it wouldn't be the first time things went so sideways even Batman sounded like a voice of reason.

    Then again, it might be fun, after all the years of secret meetings and ultra-secret meeting rooms hidden in the Watchtower and kept from other Leaguers, if the split in the community was the heroes finally deciding they've had enough of the Trinity calling the shots. The Trinity v everyone else.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree a huge schism in the heroic community would, almost of necessity, require the Trinity to be involved. Nothing of note happens in that community without those three knowing it, approving it, and having a hand in it to some degree.

    But you don't have to draw the line of division along them. You could have a split in the community, with the Trinity on the sidelines playing the role of mediators trying to find common ground and make peace. That seems a natural place for Diana and Clark to find themselves, and it wouldn't be the first time things went so sideways even Batman sounded like a voice of reason.

    Then again, it might be fun, after all the years of secret meetings and ultra-secret meeting rooms hidden in the Watchtower and kept from other Leaguers, if the split in the community was the heroes finally deciding they've had enough of the Trinity calling the shots. The Trinity v everyone else
    .
    That's not a bad idea. Might need to expand it out a bit, and say The Big 7 Original Leaguers, because even The Trinity would be hardpressed if the whole gang came at them.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    The big wigs against everyone else huh? Now there's a story...a potentially bad one, but a potentially interesting one...

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    The big wigs against everyone else huh? Now there's a story...a potentially bad one, but a potentially interesting one...
    Probably a bad one.

    I honestly struggle to see DC's heroes in a civil war. Marvel's roster have always been more self-interested, reactionary, and prone to letting squabbles get out of hand. DC's heroes disagree on a lot, but they usually act more professional and put their differences aside to get the job done. They squabble and fight yes, but they dont let it get too far and when push comes to shove they always make sure they're on the same page in a way Marvel's roster often doesn't. So anything that drives a wedge between the whole community is pretty hard to imagine, and the heroes going at each other instead of keeping their eyes on the job is even more so.

    The closest we've come was Infinite Crisis and Kingdom Come. IC was interesting but built completely on hypocrisy well out of character; Clark had taken several lives when Diana killed Max, and for worse reasons, and Bruce had tried (and failed) to kill the Joker at least a couple times. And both Diana and Clark had kept dangerous secrets of their own, just like Bruce did (though I would've accepted everyone ganging up on Bruce for that OMAC debacle and then hunting down Zee for the mindwipe!). And KC worked as a dispute between generations but in order to push the rivalry between Clark and Bruce, it had to go way out of character for Clark. The idea that he'd abandon humanity because people decided lethal force was okay is perhaps the worst reason ever for Clark to go into exile, short of Lois dying. Superman does the gods damn job and doesn't care if you like it or not. It needs to be done and he'll do it whether people thank him for it or hate him.
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  9. #69
    Spectacular Member wvchemteach's Avatar
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    I think in the DC Universe you might end up with more of a many sided war instead of just two sides.

    I think the big splitting point would be eventually the UN/US government etc. trying to put limits on the Justice League and heroes in general. Then you'd have the old guard wanting oversight, but handled internally by them and then you'd have younger heroes chaffing at anyone telling them what to do, but within that group you'd have those that would behave responsibly and those that wouldn't

    On one side you end up with those that are for government oversight both philosophically and because they have bombs in their skulls: Captain Atom, John Stewart, Suicide Squad, Hal Jordan among others.

    You'd have Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman wanting the oversight coming from them.

    As for the younger crowd you'd have some like Nightwing, Donna Troy, and Wally wanting to make their own decisions, while you'd have others like Jason Todd, Roy Harper being hot-headed and resentful of being told they aren't ready.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by wvchemteach View Post
    I think in the DC Universe you might end up with more of a many sided war instead of just two sides.

    I think the big splitting point would be eventually the UN/US government etc. trying to put limits on the Justice League and heroes in general. Then you'd have the old guard wanting oversight, but handled internally by them and then you'd have younger heroes chaffing at anyone telling them what to do, but within that group you'd have those that would behave responsibly and those that wouldn't

    On one side you end up with those that are for government oversight both philosophically and because they have bombs in their skulls: Captain Atom, John Stewart, Suicide Squad, Hal Jordan among others.

    You'd have Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman wanting the oversight coming from them.

    As for the younger crowd you'd have some like Nightwing, Donna Troy, and Wally wanting to make their own decisions, while you'd have others like Jason Todd, Roy Harper being hot-headed and resentful of being told they aren't ready.
    That's what I was stating, though you said it a bit better.

    I don't see DC having exactly the same issues as Marvel leading to Civil War. The hero registration wouldn't hang as much on secret ID's but on just who would be calling the shots.

    Marvel didn't have Thor present and put Namor and Black Panther to the side of the war. So you really didn't have issues of government control over foreign rulers. So there would be more of an issue with just how Diana or Arthur would react to the idea of someone having full authority over their actions as heroes. Or the idea of how Hal's loyalties fall between his duties as a Lantern and his duties as a US citizen.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wvchemteach View Post
    I think in the DC Universe you might end up with more of a many sided war instead of just two sides.
    Many-sided civil wars are rather unusual however, and usually they end with the more organised side winning (since they pick apart everyone else one by one while they're fighting each other). Two examples of the latter are the Spanish Civil War (where the Republican side was heavily fractured) and the Russian Civil War (where the White forces fought heavily amongst themselves. Or you end up with a split country, like after the Yugoslavian Civil War.

    What is extremely common in civil wars that are fought on ideological lines (like the American Civil War) is that the fracture lines often become fractal, with family members not only ending up on different sides but choosing to fight for different sides. And even when there is a single issue that drives the split, there are lots of other issues or principles that may weigh heavier for certain individuals or groups. In the American Civil War, several army officers from the south choose to fight for the Union not because they were opposed to slavery, but because they wanted to preserve the union. And I mentioned earlier that the reasons why Batman and Wonder Woman might oppose a superhero registration act are unlikely to be similar at all.

  12. #72
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    The split kind of happenex in Identity Crisis. One side was for mind wiping, the side against it.

    Glad that it's not referenced of again.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Of course I get your point, I am just responding to your point with my own thought - I'm not saying it's impossible with the right writer and the right concept, just that one can't overlook a comic event based on the concept of "Civil War" without Batman and Superman having key roles.
    I'm not saying they shouldn't have key roles. They absolutely should. I just think making them the respective leaders of the rival camps in a Civil War type event would just be way too predictable and repetitive at this point.
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  14. #74
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    Wonder if mera and WW actually going to war over perceived points of contention and irreconcilable differences making it a war of ancient races with the DC universe caught in between would sell as much copies as a civil war involving BvsS would.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    Wonder if mera and WW actually going to war over perceived points of contention and irreconcilable differences making it a war of ancient races with the DC universe caught in between would sell as much copies as a civil war involving BvsS would.
    I don't think Mera is important enough to have an effect. She's gotten some spotlight from the movie... but she's still a bit of an unknown to even a lot of comic fans. Aquaman and Wonder Woman would be better as they are both founding members of the Justice League and 'core' DC characters.

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