Post-COIE vs Pre-Flashpoint : what are the big differences?

[daBronzeBomma]

I tend to view the Superman from after The Crisis On Infinite Earths to the beginning of Flashpoint as one solid iteration of the hero that lasted 25 consecutive years (1986 - 2011).

I'm slowly coming around on the idea that there is a definite difference between the Superman of the late 80s/90s and the Superman of the 00s/early 10s, and that they should be considered 2 distinct iterations of Clark.

So, what are the big differences?

Where/when is the demarcation line?

Differences in abilities, attitudes, origins, appearance, etc?

And which one of the two was your preferred take?

[Vordan]

Let’s call them the “Byrne” Superman and the “Johns” Superman, since that simplifies things even though Byrne Supes was already getting some of his Pre-Crisis stuff back before Johns.

Byrne Superman was the “All-American” Boy. QB of his HS team, dated the head cheerleader, had a perfect relationship with his parents. He never really faced any hardship growing up, his childhood was that idealized Americana life. He was on good terms with his country, even helped the USA gov’t take down the Spectre at one point. He had a bit cockiness to him though, at least starting out. He also identified first and foremost as human, his Kryptonian heritage was just kind of a curiosity for him. Clark Kent was pretty much a more subdued version of Superman. He never knew Lex growing up, Lex was old and fat, basically the Kingpin of Metropolis. And finally he was much, much weaker. Couldn’t breathe in space or travel faster than light or bench press a Planet.

Johns Superman was far more of a nerd outcast. He broke Pete Ross arm playing football and after that never played sports again iirc. He was a loner, finding it hard at times to fit in. He had a good relationship with his parents like Byrne did, but I believe there was more tension there. He was more proud of his Kryptonian heritage but he still identified first and foremost as “Clark”. He also got much stronger, not quite Silver Age but stronger than Byrne Supes was. He had a friendship with the Legion that was prohibited during the Byrne era. He had the Donner crystal Fortress of Solitude with the Jor-El AI. His Lex was discredited and lost control of Lexcorp sending him back to being a criminal mad scientist. Johns Supes was more conflicted about America, clashing with the USA Army in the form of San Lane and John Corbyn. Even renounced his citizenship at one point (although he was still a citizen as Clark which made him a bit hypocritical).

[goldenknight2018]

I don't like to change Superman's origin; John Byrne says in his message board his like keep pre-crisis origin better. I thought it was John idea to change Superman's origin, but I was wrong it was DC idea change to Superman's origin.

From what I understand why DC (not John Byrne) change Superman's origin because of low sales but doesn't help raise sales, no matter what. In the mid-2000s. Mark Waid change Superman's origin and again in 2009 Geoff Johns change Superman's background may be that why Mark Waid leaves DC and again in 2011 DC change Superman's origin.

DC ruin Superman's origin and history for over 30 years. that make the Geoff Johns Superman look like a new character.
in Naomi series Superman been around for 17 years, I hope to bring back pre-crisis origin after Doomsday Clock.

[Kuwagaton]

I tend to view the Superman from after The Crisis On Infinite Earths to the beginning of Flashpoint as one solid iteration of the hero that lasted 25 consecutive years (1986 - 2011).

I'm slowly coming around on the idea that there is a definite difference between the Superman of the late 80s/90s and the Superman of the 00s/early 10s, and that they should be considered 2 distinct iterations of Clark.

In fairness I think it can be pretty reasonable to gloss over the differences. At the end of the day they were meant to be the same character, like golden age and silver age Superman initially.

So, what are the big differences?

The pre flashpoint canon basically gave everyone a pre crisis or StM origin. Which is huge when you think of Lex going from Perry's age to Clark's age. That alone changes a huge number of post crisis stories.

Creatively going from the weekly books to more standard storytelling, the approach was completely different. With little to no emphasis on supporting cast by comparison, the story went from being about a man who was super to a superhero named Superman. Post crisis Superman was a man of Metropolis and what the people thought of him and how they lived around him were big deals. Pre flashpoint Superman was more international and intergalactic. You were more likely to find him at a League meeting than the Big Belly Burger. He played harder for higher stakes ordinarily.

Where/when is the demarcation line?

It would be officially accepted post infinite crisis, as writer of the event and incoming writer to Action, Geoff Johns, explicitly stated that Superman's origin was different. And sure enough Up, Up, and Away reflected a different continuity.

But it's almost as easy to say the end of 2003 enabled a shift about the same size. Going from the Birthright set up in Superman #200, things were changing. Even when that origin was abandoned, they didn't erase the retcons or go back to Byrne's origin.

Differences in abilities, attitudes, origins, appearance, etc?

1. He was a little more powerful pre flashpoint, arguably competitive with pre crisis. Keep in mind that post crisis Superman subscribed to the power creep mechanic we saw with Kal L and New 52 Superman. Usually when he did a specific feat a second time, he performed a little better than previously.

In 1986, he was not in the same league. This meant that he would more often have to find ways around his problems aside from his powers, or find ways to compensate. He could lift "thousands" of tons easily while in air. A nine megaton nuke would knock him out for an hour. He could withstand the speed beyond light very briefly but could not achieve it on his own. He'd only last some hours without breathing, so he wouldn't get much further than Pluto without assistance and couldn't handle a sunbath until 1995. In the early 00s he smacked Death and a few other spirit toughs, and revved up to light speed. He also could fly into deep space without taking breaths by then.

He had three unique factors from 1986-2003: a bioelectric aura that influenced his physical abilities like lifting, invulnerability, and flight; a force of will that almost reached psychic levels; and Kryptonian training that allowed him some abiltiy to affect reality, shield his mind, and form telekinetic armor.

Post infinite crisis his strength was consistently high, and he'd lift a few million tons. It was easier for his fight with Kal L (they fought equally iirc, and Kal L packed enough power to knock out pre crisis Superman) to rend time and space. He also was at a level to shrug off supernovas, even if we don't quite know how post crisis or ZH Superman reacted to them.

His unique factors are retty much regaining the super speed and processing abilities he had pre crisis, iirc.

Tale of the tape: 1986 Superman pulls out a few tricks and puts up a respectable fight, but circa 2006 Superman gets really serious and puts him down. As the years go up from 86 though, the fight keeps getting closer.

2. Pre flashpoint Superman was notably more sullen and faced more ethical dilemma. He was more prone to being hated, feared, or mistrusted. He also dealt with heartache on a larger scale. His Clark was an oppressed caricature so his overall mood was less evenly balanced. Post crisis Superman was really the same person in or out of costume and the difference in how people saw him depended on when or why they saw him. He didn't pretend to be clumsy but was a little more aloof, more the type to shrug off a mistake. I guess you might argue that made him a little more mistake prone, like chucking that lab into space during Superman #1. Pre flashpoint Superman wasn't really the dad joke type, less groaners for Lois. But I guess he was overall more passionate and because he spent more time around Krypto and Kara, he was a little more into what you'd consider family over friends.

3. The interesting thing is that Johns changed the age of his secret discovery. Post crisis Superman found out at the end of high school. He went , "whoa this is heavy" and went out in the world to find himself. By his early 20s he arrived in Metropolis for college and began operating in plain clothes but more so living his life as Clark, making friends and generally being Superman without the powers. He put on the costume to protect that life while still going out to do his thing. Like Kal L he had no idea of his origins, but he found out all at once everything about Krypton. Being 28, he took little of that into consideration at first. His journey through life had him little by little embracing Krypton to where he began recognizing himself in a certain context as Kal El by 1999.

Birthright Superman found out considerably more at first and the basic reveal led to a fascination that brought him on a similar but more defined world tour, not landing in Metropolis until it was time. He found out many more details because of a mocking Lex, but accepted Krypton with little deterence. By whenever For Tomorrow was to have taken place, maybe solely because of it, he began to truly see himself as Kal El.

The Johns Superman found out earlier and much more, and it freaked him out. But he was finally the one to join the Legion and act as Superboy, so that really helped him balance being Superman/Kal El and minimized some of the problems that come from basically denying Clark.

4. Over the 1986-2011 years they kind of went from drawing him in his mid 30s to late 20s. The relaxed hair with the curl got shorter with more of a brush style. And of course there was the infamous mullet/ponytail from 1993-1996. But everyone draws him differently. Gary Frank's Superman actually went in the reverse direction, from drawing him in Supergirl to the run with Johns.

Post crisis Clark was a sharp dresser, a farmboy turned yuppie who would go from funny t shirts to flashy suits. Pre flashpoint Clark was more practical and regularly just wore the blue office suit from pre crisis.

And which one of the two was your preferred take?

Definitely post crisis. Creators aside I like a more confident, lovable lug of a Superman.