Emma Frost: Do you want her back on the X-Men?

[PsychoEFrost]

that happens to most x-men.

You asked for consequences of her actions. That was the consequence. Sorry they didn't kill her for over a decade, but you need to let the past go.

[spirit2011]

No I believe you are mistaken. Her plan was to work with the Inhumans to develop a cure while not completely destroying the one thing that could create new inhumans. While working towards a peaceful solution she worked tireless both with the xmen and the inhumans to relocate mutants around the world to a safe haven free from the toxic effects of the cloud. Yes the BQ was actively looking to destroy the cloud but she definitely didnt save Ororo from the cloud.

While it is ideal, for a story it neefed a conflict. Ororo would never be right because stories need climax and conflict.

[Hizashi]

Thats no longer true as she was a villian in IvX and later X-men Blue. She is now back to being morally gray but she had two very recent villianous stints within the past 2 years

I can't speak to Blue, and I know that this was already discussed earlier, but how can anyone accept Emma as the villain in IvX? I know that's what Marvel put on the page, but it's so blatantly contradictory to Emma's own characterization as well as the narrative that they themselves established that it's mind-boggling.

[PsychoEFrost]

I can't speak to Blue, and I know that this was already discussed earlier, but how can anyone accept Emma as the villain in IvX? I know that's what Marvel put on the page, but it's so blatantly contradictory to Emma's own characterization as well as the narrative that they themselves established that it's mind-boggling.

Again, the only ones buying into the narrative are the people who had an axe to grind with her in the first place.

[RachelGrey]

I can't speak to Blue, and I know that this was already discussed earlier, but how can anyone accept Emma as the villain in IvX? I know that's what Marvel put on the page, but it's so blatantly contradictory to Emma's own characterization as well as the narrative that they themselves established that it's mind-boggling.

Also, later in Blue after New Tian and Mothervine were over the O5 helped Emma escape from Magneto when he tried to kill her. Jeen and Tyke were even trying to convince Magneto that Emma was the reason that Mothervine was stopped in the end because Emma turned against Alex, Bastion, and Ms Sinister when Emma finally realized what the consequences of the Mothervine really was.

This part in Blue where they saved Emma I believe takes place after Emma helped Jeen with the Phoenix which was after New Tian and Mothervine.

[Hizashi]

Again, the only ones buying into the narrative are the people who had an axe to grind with her in the first place.

Yeah, I forget she's forever irredeemable.

Also, later in Blue after New Tian and Mothervine were over the O5 helped Emma escape from Magneto when he tried to kill her. Jeen and Tyke were even trying to convince Magneto that Emma was the reason that Mothervine was stopped in the end because Emma turned against Alex, Bastion, and Ms Sinister when Emma finally realized what the consequences of the Mothervine really was.

This part in Blue where they saved Emma I believe takes place after Emma helped Jeen with the Phoenix which was after New Tian and Mothervine.

So even in Blue Emma's actions aren't villainous - good to know.

[Havok83]

Both of which were writing her 110% out of character for the sake of having a villain, and blatantly ignoring the previous 27 years of publication.

I agree with you and aren’t arguing against it. Just stating facts. It’s false to say she hasn’t been written as a villian in years

I can't speak to Blue, and I know that this was already discussed earlier, but how can anyone accept Emma as the villain in IvX? I know that's what Marvel put on the page, but it's so blatantly contradictory to Emma's own characterization as well as the narrative that they themselves established that it's mind-boggling.

it still happened and is canon. She was clearly insane due to her grief and trauma which explains her actions but that was not really addressed in a satisfactory manner

Yeah, I forget she's forever irredeemable.



So even in Blue Emma's actions aren't villainous - good to know.

No she was definitely a villian. That’s not how she was at the end of the series but she was when she used the cosmic cube to take control of a team of mutants to attack the X-men, kidnap and brainwash Scott for her own selfish purposes. She was portrayed as a villian during those Secret Empire tie ins and early Mothervine stuff till Bunn did a 180 with her towards the end which wasn’t consistent at all

[RachelGrey]

I agree with you and aren’t arguing against it. Just stating facts. It’s false to say she hasn’t been written as a villian in years

it still happened and is canon. She was clearly insane due to her grief and trauma which explains her actions but that was really addressed in a satisfactory manner

I think that's an ongoing problem with writers ignoring the work of other writers. They wanted to push the Inhumans at the time and the Inhumans looked really bad in the event, just like the royal family looked bad in Realm of Kings. They can be super arrogant and really off putting sometimes. The only one of the royal family that even has any moderate amount of humanity is Crystal and even she came off in IvX badly too. They probably realized part way through that the Inhumans were coming off terribly so they decided to make Emma appear to be worse. I guess the question I have to ask is whether Emma really was worse. The number of mutants that died from the terrigen was astronomical, the cloud causes sterility in those who actually survive the poisoning effect. This whole event was absolutely devastating to mutants and the Inhumans barely even cared about what it was doing to mutants. I am not sure what would have happened if Emma didn't push for all out war with the Inhumans, would the entire mutant race be living in Limbo for the rest of eternity?

The problem is that the event was badly written just like a lot of events are. I know some writers want to roll Emma back 20 years and make her an outright villain again, but that is what Selene and Madeline are for and I believe both of them are still floating around in the X-world someplace.

[Hizashi]

I agree with you and aren’t arguing against it. Just stating facts. It’s false to say she hasn’t been written as a villian in years

That's the thing - I don't think she's been "written" as a villain, simply treated/categorized as one. Basically, in the same way that Scott's actions the last few years can hardly be described as villainous, Emma's actions can't be either - and that doesn't change just because the characters treat Emma as a villain. It's the opposite of the heroes who act like villains but are still treated/categorized as heroes. It's a fact that Marvel treats Emma as a villain and wants us to look at her as one.

it still happened and is canon. She was clearly insane due to her grief and trauma which explains her actions but that was really addressed in a satisfactory manner

Satisfactory according to who? I'm not disputing that it happened, no one is really, but there's a difference between accepting that something is canon and accepting that something is well-written. As paying customers each of us reserves the right to respectfully critique the quality, or lack thereof, of Marvel's products.

No she was definitely a villian. That’s not how she was at the end of the series but she was when she used the cosmic cube to take control of a team of mutants to attack the X-men, kidnap and brainwash Scott for her own selfish purposes. She was portrayed as a villian during those Secret Empire tie ins and early Mothervine stuff till Bunn did a 180 with her towards the end which wasn’t consistent at all

Why should Bunn's 180 of Emma's characterization be considered inconsistent if the 180 in IvX supposedly wasn't?

[spirit2011]

You asked for consequences of her actions. That was the consequence. Sorry they didn't kill her for over a decade, but you need to let the past go.

The consequence is just common and not even close to what she did wrong.
Really easy to say let the past go, even if the character keep comiting mistakes all the time

Yeah, I forget she's forever irredeemable.



So even in Blue Emma's actions aren't villainous - good to know.

that is a diferent take, working with villains but it isn't villainous

[Havok83]

That's the thing - I don't think she's been "written" as a villain, simply treated/categorized as one. Basically, in the same way that Scott's actions the last few years can hardly be described as villainous, Emma's actions can't be either - and that doesn't change just because the characters treat Emma as a villain. It's the opposite of the heroes who act like villains but are still treated/categorized as heroes. It's a fact that Marvel treats Emma as a villain and wants us to look at her as one.

Killing in cold blood, drawing pleasure out of that, making characters your slaves and mindraping a teenage boy are acts of villiany. This isnt the same situation as Scott where there were areas of gray. Emma's actions were truly reprehensible to the point that her supporters cant really defend her. The defense almost always comes down to well IvX was garbage and Bunn is a horrible writer, so lets all ignore it. Independent of how characters may view her, the things she did were of that as a villian. Im not sure how anyone can look at those stories and say she wasnt written as a villian

Satisfactory according to who? I'm not disputing that it happened, no one is really, but there's a difference between accepting that something is canon and accepting that something is well-written. As paying customers each of us reserves the right to respectfully critique the quality, or lack thereof, of Marvel's products.

I edited my post. The word not was meant to be there

Why should Bunn's 180 of Emma's characterization be considered inconsistent if the 180 in IvX supposedly wasn't?

Inconsistent is a relative term. He wrote two wildly different Emmas in his run and they were inconsistent with each other

[PsychoEFrost]

Killing in cold blood, drawing pleasure out of that, making characters your slaves and mindraping a teenage boy are acts of villiany. This isnt the same situation as Scott where there were areas of gray. Emma's actions were truly reprehensible to the point that her supporters cant really defend her. The defense almost always comes down to well IvX was garbage and Bunn is a horrible writer, so lets all ignore it. Independent of how characters may view her, the things she did were of that as a villian. Im not sure how anyone can look at those stories and say she wasnt written as a villian

I edited my post. The word not was meant to be there


Inconsistent is a relative term. He wrote two wildly different Emmas in his run and they were inconsistent with each other

I can't speak for Secret Wars but her actions in IvX were fully justified, even if she did enjoy it a little more than she should. Just because the narrative needed a bad guy doesn't suddenly make her actions lose context. The Inhumans did everything they could to exterminate mutantkind, and only backed down after Emma's plans kicked their rear ends in. If Black Bolt hadn't have been captured, the Inhumans would have just let the clouds massacre the mutants. Medusa crying crocodile tears over their deaths is a complete load considering the Inhumans knew Terrigen was toxic to mutants, and would have to be completely blind not to notice the literally thousands of mutants that died from the clouds alone.

For Blue, Bunn wrote her as the narrative directed, which was a cackling stupid madwoman, but the feedback he got was negative enough that he swapped Emma and Alex's roles and leaned heavily on the disputed "inversion" of Alex to cover his tracks.

Both times she was written horribly was to push a separate narrative.

[Havok83]

I can't speak for Secret Wars but her actions in IvX were fully justified, even if she did enjoy it a little more than she should. Just because the narrative needed a bad guy doesn't suddenly make her actions lose context. The Inhumans did everything they could to exterminate mutantkind, and only backed down after Emma's plans kicked their rear ends in. If Black Bolt hadn't have been captured, the Inhumans would have just let the clouds massacre the mutants. Medusa crying crocodile tears over their deaths is a complete load considering the Inhumans knew Terrigen was toxic to mutants, and would have to be completely blind not to notice the literally thousands of mutants that died from the clouds alone.

For Blue, Bunn wrote her as the narrative directed, which was a cackling stupid madwoman, but the feedback he got was negative enough that he swapped Emma and Alex's roles and leaned heavily on the disputed "inversion" of Alex to cover his tracks.

Both times she was written horribly was to push a separate narrative.

I have and will always defend Emma’s initial actions in IvX to strike against the Inhumans to destroy the last cloud. It’s the use of the sentinels to slaughter people where I draw the line with her

[PsychoEFrost]

I have and will always defend Emma’s initial actions in IvX to strike against the Inhumans to destroy the last cloud. It’s the use of the sentinels to slaughter people where I draw the line with her

Which for anyone who knows her history, makes as much sense as Xorneto herding humans into ovens.

[Hizashi]

Killing in cold blood, drawing pleasure out of that, making characters your slaves and mindraping a teenage boy are acts of villiany. This isnt the same situation as Scott where there were areas of gray. Emma's actions were truly reprehensible to the point that her supporters cant really defend her. The defense almost always comes down to well IvX was garbage and Bunn is a horrible writer, so lets all ignore it. Independent of how characters may view her, the things she did were of that as a villian. Im not sure how anyone can look at those stories and say she wasnt written as a villian

When I was typing up my response, I thought about however many other characters have had their characterization and histories thrown out by editorial fiat and why it bothers me that it's being done to Emma. I know other characters have been mistreated and disrespected by callous editorial decisions so in order to remain intellectually consistent and honest I can rail against the decisions made and reject the actions taken but I can't ask that the X-Men accept Emma with open arms. In-universe, she did these horrible things you say, so while I think it's follow-through of Marvel's misguided attempt to put Emma through a face-heel turn, it doesn't change the fact that she did those things. It wouldn't make sense for the certain X-Men to be willing to work with her after everything that's happened these last few years without some work.

I think it should be pointed out that these questions only seem to be of concern to Emma and Scott and a few other characters.

I edited my post. The word not was meant to be there

Got it, fair enough.

Inconsistent is a relative term. He wrote two wildly different Emmas in his run and they were inconsistent with each other

Inconsistent within his own run versus inconsistent with several years worth of characterization? Regardless of which one any of us might consider worse, they're both bad.