Sins Past vs. One More Day.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

First, you should be able to articulate exactly how they can to do it, if your point is that this is a serious plot hole in the story.

If the story acknowledges the existence and pivots on Spider-Man existing in a milieu where such options are available and accessible, i.e Spider-Man's story and situation is based in a context where there are multiple superheroes, teams, and magic and super-science are real. Then it's a problem. There is a certain amount of willing suspension of disbelief where a reader can get behind. For instance the Master Planner arc has Aunt May irradiated and needing a cure. Now at that time, Spider-Man did have a shared universe and had a few encounters with the Fantastic Four and logically one can make a case that the story could have ended had Peter gone to Reed Richards first. But the story and context makes it clear that this story is about Spider-Man solving this and doing it on his own. The situation and context is completely grounded in Peter's corner every step of the way, and indeed it is among the most purely standalone stories, where the non-initiated can believe that Peter's the only superhero in the city. The Marvel Universe was originally a gentleman's agreement whereby each story acknowledged the existence of other heroes but it was understood by editors/writers and readers that every story is standalone and can be perfectly understood as the only hero in that situation. And the shared universe was largely for the benefit and aid of characters like Iron Man who could not entirely lead a story/title by themselves.

In the case of OMD, Aunt May gets shot but the bullet isn't immediately fatal and she gets injured and taken to the hospital and is in medical care for a very long time, long enough that Peter has the Back in Black Arc, you have tie-ins in different issues and stories. In fact, JMS actually cited this as one of his problems with that story. His original plan was that Aunt May would get shot and that would lead directly to OMD, with Back in Black and other stuff happening before that. But for some weird reason, Quesada insisted that May get shot, the other stories happen and then OMD comes at the very end. This by itself conveys a situation that Aunt May's bullet wound could have been recovered and fixed and it also dials down the urgency and desperation that is needed for the Mephisto deal to be believable. Then you have a story that has Peter going and visiting everyone in the Marvel Universe to save this which is supposed to drive the desperation, Peter knocked on the door of everyone in Marvel and all of them told him it couldn't be done and whatnot.

So you have a failure of execution on every level. The situation is not desperate enough, the lack of desperation means that the likes of Reed Richards, and others should be able to fix this. Not enough is done to suggest why this is beyond him. Like if May was shot in the neck and bleeding all around and Peter desperately webs all over face to stanch the wound and he has to keep doing it every so often before the web-fluid dries up, and he's on the run and can't make the web-fluid fast enough.

There is also the problem of what it means for stories in which someone is sick if Reed Richards has much more advanced medical technology than the modern world, and is able to save anyone who is sick.

That only becomes a problem if Reed Richards is shown curing cancer or AIDS. Bullet wounds or serious trauma injuries are survivable and recoverable. People do survive shootouts, battles, terrorist attacks and accidents all the time. So it's on the believable level.

Aunt May didn't die of sickness, she got shot. Reed Richards is not being asked to cure sickness, he's being asked to operate and fix a bullet wound.

And Doom didn't defeat Mephisto by being moral. He won by being crafty.

Peter defeated Juggernaut and Firelord the same way and many others. Doom refused to bargain and reduce himself to Mephisto's level is what matters and counts.

[Alan2099]

I do think anyone who thinks someone another superhero or supervillain should have been able to help should be able to articulate exactly how they could do so.

Galactus could have saved Aunt May.

[Mister Mets]

If the story acknowledges the existence and pivots on Spider-Man existing in a milieu where such options are available and accessible, i.e Spider-Man's story and situation is based in a context where there are multiple superheroes, teams, and magic and super-science are real. Then it's a problem. There is a certain amount of willing suspension of disbelief where a reader can get behind. For instance the Master Planner arc has Aunt May irradiated and needing a cure. Now at that time, Spider-Man did have a shared universe and had a few encounters with the Fantastic Four and logically one can make a case that the story could have ended had Peter gone to Reed Richards first. But the story and context makes it clear that this story is about Spider-Man solving this and doing it on his own. The situation and context is completely grounded in Peter's corner every step of the way, and indeed it is among the most purely standalone stories, where the non-initiated can believe that Peter's the only superhero in the city. The Marvel Universe was originally a gentleman's agreement whereby each story acknowledged the existence of other heroes but it was understood by editors/writers and readers that every story is standalone and can be perfectly understood as the only hero in that situation. And the shared universe was largely for the benefit and aid of characters like Iron Man who could not entirely lead a story/title by themselves.

In the case of OMD, Aunt May gets shot but the bullet isn't immediately fatal and she gets injured and taken to the hospital and is in medical care for a very long time, long enough that Peter has the Back in Black Arc, you have tie-ins in different issues and stories. In fact, JMS actually cited this as one of his problems with that story. His original plan was that Aunt May would get shot and that would lead directly to OMD, with Back in Black and other stuff happening before that. But for some weird reason, Quesada insisted that May get shot, the other stories happen and then OMD comes at the very end. This by itself conveys a situation that Aunt May's bullet wound could have been recovered and fixed and it also dials down the urgency and desperation that is needed for the Mephisto deal to be believable. Then you have a story that has Peter going and visiting everyone in the Marvel Universe to save this which is supposed to drive the desperation, Peter knocked on the door of everyone in Marvel and all of them told him it couldn't be done and whatnot.

So you have a failure of execution on every level. The situation is not desperate enough, the lack of desperation means that the likes of Reed Richards, and others should be able to fix this. Not enough is done to suggest why this is beyond him. Like if May was shot in the neck and bleeding all around and Peter desperately webs all over face to stanch the wound and he has to keep doing it every so often before the web-fluid dries up, and he's on the run and can't make the web-fluid fast enough.



That only becomes a problem if Reed Richards is shown curing cancer or AIDS. Bullet wounds or serious trauma injuries are survivable and recoverable. People do survive shootouts, battles, terrorist attacks and accidents all the time. So it's on the believable level.

Aunt May didn't die of sickness, she got shot. Reed Richards is not being asked to cure sickness, he's being asked to operate and fix a bullet wound.



Peter defeated Juggernaut and Firelord the same way and many others. Doom refused to bargain and reduce himself to Mephisto's level is what matters and counts.

In the story as published, the problem isn't the bullet wound. It's what happened to her body afterwards. The bullet wound was operated on and fixed. The medical condition that needs to be solved is that she lapsed into a coma.

And if the argument is that Reed Richards should be able to help, we're still left with the how. What specifically could he do that modern medicine can't?

[WebLurker]

Carlie and Norah have shown up, briefly, in Spencer's run. But that's more like a cameo appearance rather than them being fully integrated into the story.

(Kinda like "remember these characters?")

Speaking frankly, I'm surprised they even got that.

(Also, I think that's the first time I've seen someone say they like Michele Gonzales.)

Okay.

10char

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And if the argument is that Reed Richards should be able to help, we're still left with the how. What specifically could he do that modern medicine can't?

Build some machine that allows Peter to enter her consciousness and commune and reshape it and bring her out of the coma.

I mean people fall into comas and they do come out. So it's not some big line that's being crossed like curing AIDS or schizophrenia would be.

[jackolover]

I think certainly JMS’s Civil War ASM was superb in setting up OMD because Aunt May was shot as a result of Peter Parker revealing his secret identity. Mark Millar may have just wanted to tell an Avengers story in CW, but JMS piggybacked his Spider-Man unmasking story along with Millar’s story. If there was no CW there would be no need for OMD.

Sins Past has my vote as the worst. I can’t accept Gwen Stacy sexing someone old enough to be her father. Peter Parker had no problem believing Gwen did that. Disappointed, but not unbelieving. One wonders with Gwen’s demise in ASM #121, was Peter that easily able to forget Gwen Stacy, and move on with MJ. I think MJ made that happen to alleviate Peter having lost Gwen in the circumstances of her giving birth to children not Peters?

I am remembering a distraught Peter in his flat screaming at MJ, (who remained with Peter instead of walking away), and we are now supposed to understand JMS had made MJ know Gwen had children with Norman Osborn when MJ stayed with Peter. So,I see that incident in a different light now, MJ, distraught and crying, as she remains with Peter. Here is one of Gwen’s best friends, MJ, and MJ is aware Gwen cheated on Peter with the Green Goblin (not sure if MJ knew Osborn was the Goblin though), and MJ is staying behind because she has this appalling secret about Gwen and Peter doesn’t know. I think, well, of course MJ has to stay with poor, mourning, Peter, because the poor schmuck doesn’t know his pure, immaculate Gwen, wasn’t all that worth mourning.

[Kevinroc]

There are two problems with the idea that someone else should have been able to save Aunt May.

First, you should be able to articulate exactly how they can to do it, if your point is that this is a serious plot hole in the story.

There is also the problem of what it means for stories in which someone is sick if Reed Richards has much more advanced medical technology than the modern world, and is able to save anyone who is sick. Mephisto's promises come with a price, so it's not going to be an automatic fix in the future.

As for the comparison with Norrin Radd, the Silver Surfer's nobility is one of his defining features. He can be more noble than Peter Parker. I also wonder if he's been in a situation where someone else's life is at stake in a deal with Mephisto. He has been willing to do terrible things (IE- become Galactus's Herald) in order to save lives.

And Doom didn't defeat Mephisto by being moral. He won by being crafty.

We saw Reed Richards and the rest of the Fantastic Four miniaturize themselves to remove an otherwise inoperable brain tumor from Willie Lumpkin (Fantastic Four #606). So yeah, they do have options that most would not have.

Doom also has access to a time machine (and "Doomlocks" to actually travel back in time instead of creating an alternate universe). So he has options that others would not have.

[Kevinroc]

I think certainly JMS’s Civil War ASM was superb in setting up OMD because Aunt May was shot as a result of Peter Parker revealing his secret identity. Mark Millar may have just wanted to tell an Avengers story in CW, but JMS piggybacked his Spider-Man unmasking story along with Millar’s story. If there was no CW there would be no need for OMD.

Sins Past has my vote as the worst. I can’t accept Gwen Stacy sexing someone old enough to be her father. Peter Parker had no problem believing Gwen did that. Disappointed, but not unbelieving. One wonders with Gwen’s demise in ASM #121, was Peter that easily able to forget Gwen Stacy, and move on with MJ. I think MJ made that happen to alleviate Peter having lost Gwen in the circumstances of her giving birth to children not Peters?

I am remembering a distraught Peter in his flat screaming at MJ, (who remained with Peter instead of walking away), and we are now supposed to understand JMS had made MJ know Gwen had children with Norman Osborn when MJ stayed with Peter. So,I see that incident in a different light now, MJ, distraught and crying, as she remains with Peter. Here is one of Gwen’s best friends, MJ, and MJ is aware Gwen cheated on Peter with the Green Goblin (not sure if MJ knew Osborn was the Goblin though), and MJ is staying behind because she has this appalling secret about Gwen and Peter doesn’t know. I think, well, of course MJ has to stay with poor, mourning, Peter, because the poor schmuck doesn’t know his pure, immaculate Gwen, wasn’t all that worth mourning.

"Peter Parker is the only boy I've met who hasn't given me a tumble!"

(Straight from the days of Ditko. So I will not have you slut-shaming, poster.)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think certainly JMS’s Civil War ASM was superb in setting up OMD because Aunt May was shot as a result of Peter Parker revealing his secret identity. Mark Millar may have just wanted to tell an Avengers story in CW, but JMS piggybacked his Spider-Man unmasking story along with Millar’s story. If there was no CW there would be no need for OMD.

The decision to unmask Peter was hashed out by both Millar and Quesada. It was a gimmick and stunt that both knew was going to be reversed. OMD in terms of timeline and story prep was hashed out before Civil War and it was originally proposed to happen before it. All it needs is Aunt May gets shot and is in critical condition. You can do that in a bank robbery gone bad, and May is collateral damage and so on.

Within the context, May gets shot, and then you have her hospitalized while Spider-Man and MJ have crazy adventures for an entire year or so, you have Back in Black, JMS' last hurrah, Fraction's Sensational Spider-Man Annual...so that dials down the desperation and hopelessness that the story tries to put out. The characters in that story don't feel continuous to the ones before, nor does the situation make sense.

You know funnily enough, when David Michelinie wrote Spider-Man, he had a plan for a year long arc where Peter unmasked or gets unmasked. He talked about this in interviews. Basically Peter's entire life gets wrecked, he's forced on the run, the government cuts a deal and eventually Peter would undo it by strapping Purple Man into an amplifier machine to make the world forget. Michelinie used that plot device and Purple Man in his Emperor Doom OGN.

So we could have had Civil War years back. As it is, the entire unmasked period was too short and not enough was done because most of it was about Peter and Civil War, the Avengers, and the wider Marvel-verse rather than grounding all that within Spider-Man's corner and background. That was Michelinie's intent at any rate.

I am remembering a distraught Peter in his flat screaming at MJ, (who remained with Peter instead of walking away), and we are now supposed to understand JMS had made MJ know Gwen had children with Norman Osborn when MJ stayed with Peter. So,I see that incident in a different light now, MJ, distraught and crying, as she remains with Peter. Here is one of Gwen’s best friends, MJ, and MJ is aware Gwen cheated on Peter with the Green Goblin (not sure if MJ knew Osborn was the Goblin though), and MJ is staying behind because she has this appalling secret about Gwen and Peter doesn’t know. I think, well, of course MJ has to stay with poor, mourning, Peter, because the poor schmuck doesn’t know his pure, immaculate Gwen, wasn’t all that worth mourning.

Remember that originally it was supposed to be Peter's children and not Norman's. No one knows what JMS' original plan was. JMS said that he wrote the final story of Sins Past in the expectation that he would later retcon it, which suggests that after the decision and groundwork was taken to write OMD, he decided to go open season and do wild stories that he thought was consequence free. In either case, he dropped the ball there. And I have no idea why Quesada agreed to that story especially since as he and Brevoort say, "every story before OMD happened only they weren't married".

Like would MJ know Gwen had Peter's children originally? I doubt it. In any case, the scene and story is now more about Mary Jane's fidelity and devotion to Peter as opposed to that cheating blonde. What's especially weird and strange is that Peter says that he and Gwen never had sex during their relationship.

Gwen Stacy in the Lee-Romita era actually did have a dark side. She was a bully to Aunt May, and she supported and volunteered for a far-right white nationalist in the issues right after her father died. I have said elsewhere there's good material to bring Gwen back as an anti-hero villain in the mould of Red Hood...but yeah Sins' Past is just ridiculous.

[WebLurker]

I think certainly JMS’s Civil War ASM was superb in setting up OMD because Aunt May was shot as a result of Peter Parker revealing his secret identity. Mark Millar may have just wanted to tell an Avengers story in CW, but JMS piggybacked his Spider-Man unmasking story along with Millar’s story. If there was no CW there would be no need for OMD.

It was my understanding that Civil War was designed partially as a stepping stone to help set up OMD.

[bob.schoonover]

SNIP

Remember that originally it was supposed to be Peter's children and not Norman's. No one knows what JMS' original plan was. JMS said that he wrote the final story of Sins Past in the expectation that he would later retcon it, which suggests that after the decision and groundwork was taken to write OMD, he decided to go open season and do wild stories that he thought was consequence free. In either case, he dropped the ball there. And I have no idea why Quesada agreed to that story especially since as he and Brevoort say, "every story before OMD happened only they weren't married".

JMS's original pitch for undoing the marriage involved time travel and, basically, reviving Gwen, right? If I recall, it was undoing Harry's drug addiction, which would cascade through established events and Gwen would never be in Europe, Norman wouldn't relapse as GG and kill her, MJ and Pete wouldn't become close, etc. Presumably, whoever the father of Gwen's kids was, that event could have been retconned in the time turner caper.

[SuperiorIronman]

A big part of the issue with JMS's plans and what ended up occurring was that it was in service to one man's obsession with a version of Spider-man that by all accounts didn't exist. Couple that with the end goals of the story and you get a story created for a reason even it can't justify.

-Spider-man cannot get back together with MJ soon because they went out of their way to destroy the relationship meaning that its hopefulness of Peter and MJ finding each other again is a pipe dream.
-Gwen can't come back from the dead because with what editorial was asking, it only affects the marriage, not The Night Gwen Stacy died.
-You can't get together with Black Cat because its purpose was to get Peter in various relationships

As a result of this you can't have Peter in a relationship with anyone because Editorial outright prevented that meaning that any relationship Peter does have is ill-fated. You can't build a status-quo like that because anything you build is threatened on the whims of editorial.

I can easily see JMS frustrated by that because he apparently did plan out what was going to be changed in continuity but with OMD being for the purpose it was, he was never going to win.

The true irony is that Spider-girl went for as long as it did, RYV was something of a success, and every Young Spider-man book or property that came out was meh, to a disaster barring the MCU.

[Tuck]

Sins Past has my vote as the worst. I can’t accept Gwen Stacy sexing someone old enough to be her father.

Her father's acquaintance at least, through that club they were in with Jamison. And her friend's dad. Her friend that she went to high school with, and it is implied dated.

So much squick.

[Scott Taylor]

JMS's original pitch for undoing the marriage involved time travel and, basically, reviving Gwen, right? If I recall, it was undoing Harry's drug addiction, which would cascade through established events and Gwen would never be in Europe, Norman wouldn't relapse as GG and kill her, MJ and Pete wouldn't become close, etc. Presumably, whoever the father of Gwen's kids was, that event could have been retconned in the time turner caper.

JMS's original pitch would have also eliminated Sins Past with OMD. Another strike against the OMD we got, for my money. The way it was implemented by Quesada forced Sins Past to stay canonical, leaving us all with two hated stories rather than one.

In my opinion, had JMS had his way we would no longer be talking about either story. OMD would likely have not held as long as it has and would have already been reversed just due to its radicalness and Sins Past would of course never have happened.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

JMS's original pitch for undoing the marriage involved time travel and, basically, reviving Gwen, right? If I recall, it was undoing Harry's drug addiction, which would cascade through established events and Gwen would never be in Europe, Norman wouldn't relapse as GG and kill her, MJ and Pete wouldn't become close, etc. Presumably, whoever the father of Gwen's kids was, that event could have been retconned in the time turner caper.

JMS never discussed his original plans in detail but more or less he said here: http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.co...c=18701.0;wap2

What I wanted to do was to make one small change to history, a tiny thing, whose ripples we could control to only touch what editorial wanted to touch, making changes we could explain logically. I worked for weeks to come up with a timeline that would leave every other bit of continuity in place. It was rigorous, and as logical as I could make it. In the end of OMD as published, Harry is alive and he's always been alive as far as the characters know...so how is that different than he was alive the whole time?

It made no sense to me.

Still doesn't. It's sloppy. It violates every rule of writing fiction of the fantastic that I and every other SF/Fantasy writer knows you can't violate. It's fantasy 101.

It troubled me that it's MJ and not Peter who is the one to actively make the decision.


I'd originally written the first issue of OMD to take place directly after May gets shot, and in fact turned in the first script directly after she gets nailed. Editorial decided to build in a block of issues for One More Day...meaning May would be in that bed for almost a *year* which I thought was just too long to make work.

And yes, I wanted to retcon the Gwen twins out of continuity, which was something I always assumed I could do at the end of my run. I wasn't allowed to do this, and yes, it pissed me off. I felt I was left holding the bag for something I wanted to get rid of, and taking the rap for a writing lapse that I had never committed. Why this aspect was not brought up in the other interview, you'd have to ask Joe.

Mainly, the book was rewritten in the editorial offices to a degree that the words weren't mine any longer, to a certain degree in three, and massively in four. If the work represents me, I leave the name there and take the rap; if it doesn't, then that's a different situation. There's just not much of my work there, especially once you get to the last dong of midnight...everything after that was written by editorial.

Whether my work is good or it sucks, it's mine. What came out of the end of OMD wasn't, hence my desire to omit the writing credit. Joe [Quesada] graciously offered to share it on the last issue. I think that helped. Credit where credit is due.




Basically JMS thought OMD was an actual Crisis of Infinite Earths style Reboot of Spider-Man and he approached it in that way. And that is more or less what it is but Quesada and others are lying through their teeth that it's not because in the same way we're fighting wars with Oceania, always, Marvel doesn't do stuff that DC does. The Post-OMD Spider-Man in a serial continuity sense is absolutely not the Spider-Man of AF#15. That version of that character was finished in OMD, and JMS and Joe Quesada were the last writers to work on him.

JMS' attitude is that okay, they want Peter to be young, hip and relatable so fine let's go back and make the Lee-Romita years the default running status-quo. OMD instead went with the Bronze Age, a later era. His version of the continuity and timeline he says would logically have kept all the toys in the box going forward. But it would also be unmistakably a rebooted Spider-Man, rather than the deceitful hollow compromise you have now which is basically more or less the clone saga redux. The Clone Saga told everyone, or tried to tell everyone, that the Peter Parker from #150 onwards, the one who met the Kid Who Collected Spider-Man, romanced Black Cat, married MJ, survived Kraven's Last Hunt and others is a clone. OMD is telling us that the Spider-Man and Mary Jane of KLH, the Venom Saga, JMS' entire run, and Fraction's To Have and Have Old among others weren't married when those stories and eras were written, and explicitly so by writers, to be about them as a married couple and the maturity it brought to the characters.

A big part of the issue with JMS's plans and what ended up occurring was that it was in service to one man's obsession with a version of Spider-man that by all accounts didn't exist. Couple that with the end goals of the story and you get a story created for a reason even it can't justify.

Yeah, JMS said later that he was okay with the marriage and wanted it to continue. He only agreed to OMD as a favor to Quesada, and to find some way to close it in a way that gave his stories and run some impact. It didn't work out for him needless to say.