View Poll Results: Sins Past vs. One More Day. What's worse?

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  • Sins Past

    28 43.08%
  • One More Day

    37 56.92%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I can’t speak about Peter losing his virginity (didn’t know there was an issue that many fans agreed as the particular moment it happened).
    It's #149 and Mary Jane has the honor of officially making Peter Spider-Man in a way that even the spider never did when it bit him.

    So my nitpick is more than anything else born of the place where Sins Past puts Peter and Gwen. One of the problems I see about writing 616 Gwen nowadays is that she’s such a product of the 60’s, and has been death for so long, that she cames out as an anachronism.
    That's certainly true. It's a fact that while Peter's high school days are often revisited they tend to have some updates like Learning to Crawl inserts smartphones and other stuff in the L-D background but Peter's college era is often done in a Romita style throwback without any real updates.

    Like if it was in the 90s then the Coffee Bean gang should look like FRIENDS or Seinfeld. Spider-Man: Blue, To Have and to Hold and the flashbacks in Sins' Past has a strong late-60s and 70s vibe and look. The only time you got to see Peter's college era shown that way is the MTV Spider-Man cartoon and that lasted for one season...and Gwen wasn't there.

    It isn’t something that I care about, but Sins Past stating that it didn’t happen kinda of took me off balance, besides, it was a cheap way of getting rid of the chance that maybe Peter was the father
    Peter was originally supposed to be the father but Quesada vetoed that saying he didn't want to suggest Peter and Gwen had premarital sex or didn't use protection (because if it's set in the 90s then its Post-AIDS so Peter should be using protection). Quesada then suggested Norman as the babydaddy which JMS said yes to...and man these two guys were just the worst fit for each other.

    Sins' Past isn't the first time you had a plot like this. According to Jim Shooter, Bill Mantlo once pitched a story about Felicia Hardy having Peter's illegitimate child. Shooter told him to his face it ain't happening. Pointing out that doing so would bring the wrath of the Bible Belt down on them and scare away all the people who are marketing Spider-man's license for kids. Marvel signed contracts with companies using the license that they would never have Spider-Man get into plots like that. Incidentally Spider-Man PS4 had a plotline like that with Felicia Hardy scaring Peter about maybe having his kid and Peter's all scared and panicked about it. That turned out to be another Black Cat con...
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 02-04-2019 at 01:34 PM. Reason: change

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I was aware about the original idea for Sins Past, but someday I plan to buy the Clone Saga done by Conway. I’m still debating with myself if I must buy the whole run or just some parts. I already have The Night Gwen Stacy Died and the two-part story with Harry as Green Goblin
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I was aware about the original idea for Sins Past, but someday I plan to buy the Clone Saga done by Conway. I’m still debating with myself if I must buy the whole run or just some parts. I already have The Night Gwen Stacy Died and the two-part story with Harry as Green Goblin
    Conway's run from 121-149 is pretty good and still holds up well. There are some lows but also stuff that has held up better than most. You have The Punisher's first appearance (#129), then stuff that people are in two minds over...some don't like the Tarantula but others like most recently Yuri Lowenthal, voice of Peter Parker, is a big fan. Actually Conway's work is getting more attention nowadays critically than before. As people are taking a look at the stuff he did after The Night Gwen Stacy Died. His stories have a distinctive style, especially the one-page Epilogue which kind of sums up economically what the entire story is about emotionally...that's a Conway thing.

    The first clone saga (142-149) is probably his best work in that it brings together bits and pieces from all his stories together. The seeds for it was planted after The Night Gwen Stacy Died where the backlash made Lee demand that they bring Gwen back someway somehow. Conway came up with the clone idea and the Clone Saga is more or less a story about "Gwen drools, MJ rules". I mean it now has this significance and importance as the inspiration for the second, and inferior in every-single-way, second saga (but unfortunately more famous). But it has nothing to do with that. It's a Silver-Bronze story about grief, nostalgia, growing up, and moving on. The Jackal is basically the incarnation of fans who fixate and felt bad about Gwen's death and specifically the fact that Gwen is the girl who died rather than caring about who she was when she was alive...the fact that said guy is a creepy lecherous professor is part of the satire.

    Remember the grief people gave Cyclops for breaking the heart of his wife and kid and then shacking up with Jean, and falling in love with his wife Madeylyne because she was a Jean clone...and how that mentality was bascially enabled and normalized for some ten years and not seen as the actions of a creep and deadbeat. Well The First Clone Saga is the sane version of that setup. The main emotional story of Gerry Conway's run is the Peter and Mary Jane love story.

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    I got more bothered by Sins Past when considering the ickiness of children in the bodies of adults, and the use of an actual medical condition: progeria, which comes with a life expectancy of 13.
    Sincerely,
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  5. #35
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I got more bothered by Sins Past when considering the ickiness of children in the bodies of adults, and the use of an actual medical condition: progeria, which comes with a life expectancy of 13.
    The fast aging was dull and stupid. Probably one of the weakest point of that storyline and a good reason why Peter couldn’t be the father. That his never hear before children were kids in a 20 year old body would have been probably worse that them being Osborn’s offspring. Still, I keep dreaming of a day when I will have a Peter 616/prime with a daughter or son
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Never read either story, but if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with "Sins Past"; it sounds really bad, but in a curious way, over an editorial mandate that was just supposed to set up the next story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    Oh, I still have some holes to fill in the Peter/Gwen romance, since I’m collecting the Epic Collections that collect Stan Lee’s stories as they come out, so currently, though I have read some issues here and there, I’m waiting for the trades that are going to have the issues with Gwen and Peter as a couple.

    I can’t speak about Peter losing his virginity (didn’t know there was an issue that many fans agreed as the particular moment it happened). So my nitpick is more than anything else born of the place where Sins Past puts Peter and Gwen. One of the problems I see about writing 616 Gwen nowadays is that she’s such a product of the 60’s, and has been death for so long, that she cames out as an anachronism.
    As I understand it, it's a theory, never confirmed, and could be read either way. There's also a fan theory that Peter had an affair with Betty Brant at one point (never confirmed one way or the other but apparently a lot of people say "no") and I understand that there was a Black Cat series that retconned her and Peter having a sexual relationship during their initial dating stint. No idea where all that fits with the idea that Peter did it first with MJ in that one story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I know 60’s Pete probably didn’t have sex with Betty, nor with Gwen, or better put, it doesn’t matter for those stories nor did it to Stan Lee, Steve Ditko and Romita Sr, but if you make Peter and Gwen to be dating in the late 90’s, especially since he was in college and given the long time they went out, I kinda asume they had sex tough not explicitly reveal. It isn’t something that I care about, but Sins Past stating that it didn’t happen kinda of took me off balance, besides, it was a cheap way of getting rid of the chance that maybe Peter was the father
    Who's to say that they couldn't be a '90s couple and not have had a sexual relationship? Some people choose to abstain while dating for any number of reasons.
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  7. #37
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Easily OMD. I got no beef with Sins Past.
    "We live in a world of cowards. We live in a world full of small minds who are afraid. We are ruled by those who refuse to risk anything of their own. Who guard their over bloated paucities of power with money. With false reasoning. With measured hesitance. With prideful, recalcitrant inaction. With hateful invective. With weapons. F@#K these selfish fools and their prevailing world order." Tony Stark

  8. #38
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    Okay so I found this transcript from the unfunny comedy duo that is Brevoort/Wacker:

    Brian Cronin: Is Sins Past in continuity?

    Tom Brevoort: Yes, like it or not. Everything that was in continuity is still in continuity.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...57#post4180057



    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    As I understand it, it's a theory, never confirmed, and could be read either way.
    Gerry Conway was quite coy when he was asked about it. And usually when people are coy it's totally, "Yeah they totally did it."

    And anyway if you read the first caption of Issue #150 by Archie Goodwin it makes it clear that they did do it. "Mary Jane was here and Peter Parker could lose himself in her, in their closeness, in their mutual need."

    There's also a fan theory that Peter had an affair with Betty Brant at one point (never confirmed one way or the other but apparently a lot of people say "no")
    Marv Wolfman, writer of that issue, said in that article you quoted it was left to the reader...and again that's code for, "Yeah they totally did it."

    Alfred Hitchcock when he made a movie called I Confess had Montgomery Clift and Anne Baxter in a gazebo during the rain and this was a period of censorship. So years later an interviewer asked him if they did it, "God I hope so...though far be it for me as a Jesuit to recommend that kind of behavior".

    Who's to say that they couldn't be a '90s couple and not have had a sexual relationship? Some people choose to abstain while dating for any number of reasons.
    They totally could. Like Andrew Garfield's Peter and Emma Stone's Gwen weren't implied to be doing it in the Amazing Spider-Man movies and those are set in a Post-Bing Search world. In fact the Spider-Man movies are always chaste.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Three posts were deleted.

    Name-calling is not acceptable, whether it's comics pros or fans here.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Who's to say that they couldn't be a '90s couple and not have had a sexual relationship? Some people choose to abstain while dating for any number of reasons.
    Oh, I know that there’re people who choose to abstain, I didn’t want my post to be seen as me saying that it was ilogical or something like that. I felt it was a way of getting rid quickly of the possibility of Peter being the father. The first three issues are ambiguos about that chance, and you can guess Peter had the doubt that maybe he was the father, but he revealed at the end of issue three that he couldn’t be because they didn’t had sex, throwing out the window the possibility in a second. Sure, having the protagonist know more than the reader is an acceptable mechanism, but I don’t find it rewarding in this story.

    Maybe I was just too influenced by Spider-Man Blue and that final kiss between Gwen and Peter and wrongly asumed that their non-sexual relantionship was more something of the time those stories by Lee and Conway were published that something that had to do with the characters
    Last edited by Chubistian; 02-04-2019 at 08:04 PM.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Gerry Conway was quite coy when he was asked about it. And usually when people are coy it's totally, "Yeah they totally did it."

    And anyway if you read the first caption of Issue #150 by Archie Goodwin it makes it clear that they did do it. "Mary Jane was here and Peter Parker could lose himself in her, in their closeness, in their mutual need."
    Okay.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Marv Wolfman, writer of that issue, said in that article you quoted it was left to the reader...and again that's code for, "Yeah they totally did it."
    That seems more like a stretch, at least as far as invoking word of god; the writer said he doesn't remember what the original intent was and thinks he was letting readers make their own conclusions. I could see it going either way myself; cutting from Betty and Peter passionately kissing and no conclusive evidence that Peter ultimately refused her advances does really paint the picture that he did sleep with her. Betty also had an affair with Flash Thompson somewhere down the line, as I recall, so does seem consistent that she would try with Peter under the circumstances. Peter's post-encounter debate with himself where he's rationalizing rekindling his relationship with would make some sense if he trying to justify having been part of an affair with him. And, for whatever it may be worth, his previously sleeping with MJ shows that extramarital sex is something he's okay with. There is a difference between being okay with that and being okay with being part of an affair, but it would be one less barrier.

    That said, I do kinda agree with the other writers cited that it seems odd that if Peter did really do the deed with Betty that his monologue isn't anymore specific to that point. Granted, if Peter was supposed to have slept with Betty off-panel and the censors wouldn't allow it, it would be really obscure. That said, between the hazy nature of what Peter does say about what exactly happened and the author's own admission that he thinks there's no clear answer, I guess the question is if the Marvel writers at the time would've let one of their hero characters become an adulterer.

    (Wow, I feel like my brain's been in the gutter now.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    Oh, I know that there’re people who choose to abstain, I didn’t want my post to be seen as me saying that it was ilogical or something like that. I felt it was a way of getting rid quickly of the possibility of Peter being the father. The first three issues are ambiguos about that chance, and you can guess Peter had the doubt that maybe he was the father, but he revealed at the end of issue three that he couldn’t be because they didn’t had sex, throwing out the window the possibility in a second. Sure, having the protagonist know more than the reader is an acceptable mechanism, but I don’t find it rewarding in this story.

    Maybe I was just too influenced by Spider-Man Blue and that final kiss between Gwen and Peter and wrongly asumed that their non-sexual relantionship was more something of the time those stories by Lee and Conway were published that something that had to do with the characters
    Okay. (I have heard the idea that Blue is not canon, or at least is rather inaccurate to the original stories, although I'm not sure what the official position on that is.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    Maybe I was just too influenced by Spider-Man Blue and that final kiss between Gwen and Peter and wrongly asumed that their non-sexual relantionship was more something of the time those stories by Lee and Conway were published that something that had to do with the characters
    Spider-Man: Blue is excellent but it's more "this is how Peter and Gwen's romance should have been like" rather than what it was. It's also done in both art-style and in story in this retrospective haze. The color, the art and the design is chiffon light and hazy and kind of suggests the '60s and '70s, mostly I think it's the bright colors and so on. In a character sense Peter is remembering Gwen and those "good old days" and his nostalgia is coloring his recollection. This can happen to everyone especially to someone who has undergone trauma like Peter and a number of stories, Pre-OMD and more recently No One Dies by Slott shows, death so defines his memories that it's coming at the risk of forgetting people as they were when they lived.

    The times do shape and define the characters. Lee-Romita wrote Gwen as a naive, virginal and pure girl. Albeit someone who occassionally does show she's hot...so you have the Savage Land three-parter where she's a bikini model and shows more skin than MJ ever did for some 260 issues. She's basically "the cool girl" from that controversial speech in GONE GIRL, and that would be one way to interpret her to give her character depth...except retrospective issues keep making her a martyr or saint. The problem is that Peter and Gwen never really had much in terms of relationship. They are never shown as a couple, they never really had fights after they got together, there's not much of banter between them.

    In this case sliding-time scale might come to the rescue. Everyone assumes that Peter and Gwen had this years long romance, but Peter got into college in Issue #31 and stayed there till he graduated in one of Wolfman's issues, so that's a lot of stuff that happens in a small bottle, so maybe Peter and Gwen's entire romance and relationship was little less than a year, and that Peter missed dates and Gwen said she would wait, and then stuff kept delaying it, then George Stacy died, Peter grew six-arms, had to cover events for the bugle, Gwen went to London...and then in the Savage Land, Jonah accompanied Peter and Gwen...and that kills the mood like nothing else. So maybe Peter didn't really know Gwen very well. Maybe the relationship meant more to Peter for all those missed chances and opportunities than for the time they actually had.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    That said, I do kinda agree with the other writers cited...
    It's not other writers. It's Tom Brevoort who is Executive Editor and he is not a writer. He certainly wasn't part of the writing and editorial team in the '70s. And Brevoort is quite inaccurate and incorrect about a number of stuff. Like his Spider-Man Manifesto is kind of hilarious for just how many glaring errors there are. Marv Wolfman saying that it's left to the readers is more apt and correct. But officially Brevoort is right that since it isn't clear and specified...unlike Sins' Past which openly tells us that Gwen cheated on Peter with Norman (and which Brevoort says is canon)...that it's something they can take-or-leave.

    Okay. (I have heard the idea that Blue is not canon, or at least is rather inaccurate to the original stories, although I'm not sure what the official position on that is.)
    Officially Blue is canon. Since Peter is narrating and remembering that...the justification for the loose continuity is that his memory is hazy and its colored by nostalgia. The actual framing device which takes place in the present doesn't contradict or depend on any in-continuity stuff. The funny thing is that when the first issue came out...Peter-MJ were still "separated" but by the time the final issue came out, it was a month ahead or behind of JMS' "Doomed Affairs" which brought them back together again (pretty ironic for a title like that). So it could have been set a few years behind like Post-Clone Saga...or it could fit in the JMS era post ASM#50 and Pre-New Avengers.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 02-04-2019 at 08:53 PM. Reason: change

  13. #43
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    OMD still affects the status quo. Sins Past does not. That makes it a clear choice for me - OMD.
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  14. #44
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Okay. (I have heard the idea that Blue is not canon, or at least is rather inaccurate to the original stories, although I'm not sure what the official position on that is.)
    Well, it certainly contradicts the original stories by Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. It’s a retelling of old comics in the same style that Man Without Fear by Frank Miller and John Romita Jr was, though I think that was intended at first as a retcon of DD origins, but not every detail was finally carried on to canon. You can always said that Blue fits in canon as Peter recording those tapes but messing with certain details that he fails to remember correctly, but I find it hard to believe if we consider that some events are completely different from the original stories
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    I don't think Loeb & Sale's Colours series (Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, etc.) are supposed to be 100% canon, since like someone mentioned, they're all supposed to be about the character reflecting on the past, so the events are going to feel alot more romanticized then they might have been. They leave it up to the reader if they want to interpret those events how they're presented as being the "real", or the originals, which I think is a good way to do it.

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