Reinvigorating Superman

[Lasil]

My Aquaman comparison went in a different than I wanted so this thread will be more direct.

Superman is not as popular as he used to be. There's no question about that. There was a time when you could ask any child who their favorite superhero was and Superman was guaranteed to be in the top 3. Today, things are different.

How did Superman's popularity diminish and what can be done to reinvigorate the character?

My solution is to go back to what worked best, the original formula by Siegel & Shuster combined with the imagination of the Silver Age, but I want to know what you'll think.

[Vordan]

Morrison tried that with the New 52. He did a great job imo but no one after him could measure up at least sales-wise.

Also weren’t you saying in the other thread that comics are niche? Any rejuvenation in Supes popularity has to come from outside media then. He had two animated movies recently that performed well. If we could get a Zack Snyder-less movie then maybe he’d see success on the big screen.

[Lasil]

[QUOTE=Vordan;4182002]Morrison tried that with the New 52. He did a great job imo but no one after him could measure up at least sales-wise.

Also weren’t you saying in the other thread that comics are niche? Any rejuvenation in Supes popularity has to come from outside media then. He had two animated movies recently that performed well. If we could get a Zack Snyder-less movie then maybe he’d see success on the big screen.[/QUOT E]

IMO the New 52 lacked the charm of Siegel & Shuster's stories.

[Soubhagya]

So, that was the point of that thread.

A direct question goes a long way. It has to come from another medium. As much as i enjoy the Superman comics right now, you can't experiment much. There is always a pull to the status quo. Its not unique to Superman. But its stronger with Superman as Superman has tasted success since day one. And he has been like that for 80 years while seeing ups and downs along the way.

The other way is alternate universe, out of continuity stories. If someone can come up with something like Dark Knight Returns it will affect others. Superman comics aren't really masterpieces. Apart from a couple like All Star you will find it hard to see genuine classics. Before All Star some people used to say that Alan Moore's Supreme is the best Superman story.

Perhaps, Superman can never be the top dog. The world is becoming more and more jaded. Superman is not that kind of character. If you try to reinvent him you risk the displeasure of fans of previous versions. You have to hit the ground running so that you quickly get the goodwill of newer fans. Its an extremely difficult task.

Getting over Superman's death and origin might help.

[The World]

People have been asking how to fix Superman for the longest time, the guy is basically a ball of scar tissue from all the overhauls he keeps getting. I will say that when I compare Superman to most other characters there is a lack of deference for his roots in a way that doesn't exist in a lot of other characters. The Golden Age needs to become paramount in understanding the character, he should be busting his ass 110% to make the world a better place.

I think part of the reason a relatively simplistic character like Goku is able to hold popularity is because he understands himself, same thing with Luffy. People say that Superman needs to be charming but honestly that's a quality cult leaders, tv personalities, and politicians covet; Supes is suppose to just be a modern day Hercules that's ready throw down with evil. He doesn't need to be charming just honest about what he is. No more farmer, no more Norman McRegularguy, no more wanting to be human. Just get out there and do actual good, stop a war, rough up some thugs and don't apologize if he's rough, stop apologizing in general. Get back to those Golden Age sensibilities and then you can add in other stuff but the Golden Age (38-53 or so) should constitute 80% or so of who he is.

[kingaliencracker]

I feel ranking a character's popularity is pointless, especially with a well-established character such as Superman.

Superman isn't going anywhere. Conversely, he is unlikely to surpass the likes of Batman, Spider-Man, or the MCU in terms of popularity again. Superman is either a character you like or you don't, and there are plenty of outlets and available media to enjoy the character if the current DC run isn't doing it for you.

[Robanker]

Stop basing other multimedia efforts with the character on hypothetical stories on him turning evil (Injustice, potential Red Son film despite the source being great) or dying (I don't have all day for this one) to remind people that Superman himself is interesting, not perverting his core narrative. I'd start there.

Show people your character's cool. It's why I hate when a writer has Lois say "I'm so stupid I couldn't see through the glasses." Don't be self-hating. Build on what makes you great. Think Lois is lame because she couldn't see through the glasses? Have her intrinsically know but unable to prove Clark is Superman because he can get one step ahead of her by using his powers.

Think Superman's corny? The words "I love you" are the most trite, overused utterances in any language but everyone dies to hear them from the right person. Corny isn't bad. Corny can feel pretty great if you're unashamed and have some fun with it.

WB is ashamed of Superman right now and the results are products that are desperately trying to retool him into something more modern without understanding that they're delivering a poor-man's other product. You could spend all day arguing about marketing, video games, movies or whatever you desire, but the argument begins and ends with whoever is funding projects that seem to think Superman is broken and needs fixing. You're never going to convince someone that Superman is worth their money by telling them he sucks.

[Sacred Knight]

Honest answer is I have no clue. I know what I'd like to see the character go back to. But I certainly have no reason to go and guarantee that it would have the wide effect of reinvigorating him on a long-term level. I can't claim I have that answer. All I know is that who counts, WB/DC, don't have that answer either and haven't for thirty years.

[Uncanny Mutie]

Also weren’t you saying in the other thread that comics are niche? Any rejuvenation in Supes popularity has to come from outside media then. He had two animated movies recently that performed well. If we could get a Zack Snyder-less movie then maybe he’d see success on the big screen.

This. A cool video game series would also help, like the Arkham games or the PS4 Spider-Man game.

[titansupes]

Superman's popularity has diminished (which isn't to say he still isn't one of the most popular and iconic characters in the history of fiction, he undeniably is) because of a lack of QUALITY content in the mainstream (SIII, IV, MoS, BvS etc) and people spreading the love to other heroes finally entering the mainstream.

The solution is simple-- If the boneheads in charge stop listening to the wrong voices, the core fanbase stops panicking at every "setback", and everyone embraces him for what he is, rather than trying to "fix" him by listening to the stupidity of "He's too nice, he's too powerful, he's not relatable, he needs to be darker" etc.

The fact of the matter is, all the most popular and well-received versions of him have been the charming, happy, bright and energetic ones. Not the broody, edgy reinventions. Look at STM, SII, All-Star, Hoechlin well received, as opposed to the failures of the New 52, Earth One and unfortunately Cavill. Put THAT bright Superman in an unapologetic, WELL-MADE and energetic modern movie (Which he hasn't had for SO long) and things will happen.

Hopefully both WB and DC have learned their lessons with the success of Rebirth, and their last minute course-correction to trying to get make Cavill into something like that with Justice League-- and people responded to it! But it was too little too late, and hampered by some bizarre CGI and wrapped in a bloody awful movie once again.

Stop trying to darken him up. He's not meant to be dark. Stop trying to make him relatable, he IS relatable. Stop trying to weaken him. He's powerful, and only as invincible as Batman, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Wonder Woman and Aquaman... Hell, even John McClane, Ethan Hunt and James Bond etc... Because that's how fictional heroes work.

Give him a TOUCH of the Golden Age attitude, some Silver Age zaniness, some of his Bronze Age nuance, wrap him in quality film-making. Done.

[Vordan]

And ffs use someone OTHER THAN LEX OR ZOD! Use Brainiac or Mongul or whoever but NOT Lex or Zod.

[Osiris-Rex]

Superman's popularity has diminished (which isn't to say he still isn't one of the most popular and iconic characters in the history of fiction, he undeniably is) because of a lack of QUALITY content in the mainstream (SIII, IV, MoS, BvS etc) and people spreading the love to other heroes finally entering the mainstream.

The solution is simple-- If the boneheads in charge stop listening to the wrong voices, the core fanbase stops panicking at every "setback", and everyone embraces him for what he is, rather than trying to "fix" him by listening to the stupidity of "He's too nice, he's too powerful, he's not relatable, he needs to be darker" etc.

The fact of the matter is, all the most popular and well-received versions of him have been the charming, happy, bright and energetic ones. Not the broody, edgy reinventions. Look at STM, SII, All-Star, Hoechlin well received, as opposed to the failures of the New 52, Earth One and unfortunately Cavill. Put THAT bright Superman in an unapologetic, WELL-MADE and energetic modern movie (Which he hasn't had for SO long) and things will happen.

Hopefully both WB and DC have learned their lessons with the success of Rebirth, and their last minute course-correction to trying to get make Cavill into something like that with Justice League-- and people responded to it! But it was too little too late, and hampered by some bizarre CGI and wrapped in a bloody awful movie once again.

Stop trying to darken him up. He's not meant to be dark. Stop trying to make him relatable, he IS relatable. Stop trying to weaken him. He's powerful, and only as invincible as Batman, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Wonder Woman and Aquaman... Hell, even John McClane, Ethan Hunt and James Bond etc... Because that's how fictional heroes work.

Give him a TOUCH of the Golden Age attitude, some Silver Age zaniness, some of his Bronze Age nuance, wrap him in quality film-making. Done.

I think this is the problem. People have lost interest in Superman because they haven't been getting the Superman they want. They are now getting the Superman that appeals to the edgelords and no one wants that Superman but
the edgelords. Bring Superman back to his roots and people will embrace Superman again.

[Vakanai]

A really good movie. That's why Batman and Spider-Man are so popular, the movies, they've had great ones. Add in a solo cartoon series again (sure, Superman had his STAS like Batman had BTAS, but since? Batman had The Batman, Brave and the Bold, Beware the Batman, even if CN kept killing those series) and some really good games that can compete with the Arkham series. So, a better live action movie (get Snyder out), a cartoon series somewhere besides CN that kids will watch (do children even watch streaming services? Shame WB can't use Nickelodeon or Disney), and good videogames. This is what is needed, nothing done in comics will ever make a dent.

[Ascended]

There's a lot of reasons why Clark isn't as popular as he used to be. More competition, questionable/bad management for the past three decades, cultural shifts, etc. The lack of consistent, regular adaptations in larger media haven't helped either. But perhaps the biggest hurdle is Clark's own legend. Everything else is easily rectified, or is just part of the natural ebb and flow and nothing the character can't deal with, hasn't dealt with before, and won't deal with again. But Clark's legend? That's a tough mountain to climb.

People equate Superman with some sort of religious epiphany. He's held to a standard by the public that the character has never met, nor has ever tried to. Clark is a good man, but he's never been this perfect ideal that people try to force on him. And even though the reputation of Superman exceeds anything he's tried to be, he's still held to those expectations to his detriment. I mean, many of the complaints about MoS was that it wasn't "inspiring enough." No one tosses that trite BS at other characters, not to half the extent they weigh Clark down with. Sorry, but you're just supposed to be entertained by Superman. He's supposed to be a cathartic escapist fantasy who tackles the crapstick people and problems we can't actually tackle in real life. You're not supposed to look at him and see the face of god. The public has completely unrealistic expectations for Superman, most of which have almost no reflection in the actual mythos, and that's done more damage than anything because nothing that is even remotely true to the character will match what people think they want from him. And the only way to get past that is to let Superman's legend fail and fade until no one cares anymore, which isn't an option. Hell, at this point Im not even sure if the legend *can* fade that much.

Every person out there has a very strong idea about who and what Superman is. And 95% of those people actually have no idea what or who Superman *really* is. Anything you do is going to piss off most of them.

I don't know if this would serve as a solution and even if it did, it'd be messy. But perhaps it's time to get back to the core values of the character; the champion of the little guy, taking on the corrupt politicians and businessmen who abuse their power. Maybe the solution is less alien invasions and more stories about stuff that actually matters. Sure, lots of people will bitch about it but if, in the interests of being "for everyone," Superman isn't pissing anyone off, he's not inspiring anyone else either.

[Vordan]

Yeah the whole preconceptions people have of Clark have hurt the character. He’s a god, he can’t be hurt by anything except Kryptonite, when Lois dies he goes evil, he’s a good ol’ farmboy who serves the government, he gets his ass kicked by Batman, he has no good villains except Lex and Zod, all that crap.

For all the Snyder fans shilling DCEU Supes as a more “human” Clark, Snyder’s Supes conformed to a lot of the terrible preconceptions people have. Snyder Supes is incredibly dull as a character possessing no real wit or charm and is just a static brick. He’s utterly overpowered to the point that nothing except Kryptonite can hurt him. Getting punched by Zod left no bruises on him. He makes the rest of the JL look useless. Snyder had a chance to really change the way people view Supes and he ******* blew it so bad Supes isn’t going to get another movie for 10 years at the very least.

Not just Snyder though. Grant Morrison gave us a Superman in the New 52 that was what people said they wanted. He was flawed. He made mistakes. Everyone didn’t instantly adore him unconditionally, people hated and feared him for a while. He tackled “real issues” and used his brains as well as his fists. He loved boxing and taught himself how to fight. And DC destroyed him with bad writing and terrible editorial mandates and now we’re back to the guy a few years ago everyone was deriding as boring.

Outside of movies Supes doesn’t have anything. No TV shows. No cartoons, in Weisman’s YJ series Supes is a source of angst for Kon or else wise nonexistent. The DCAMU did a good job with the last two movies but Jesus Christ I’m so sick of Death of Superman stories. And Red Son is going to be awful, especially if Timm is making it, that dude does not understand or respect the character at all. No one even wants to try to make a video game, although seeing how anal even some members of this forum are about how you can’t give Supes a health bar (even though Injustice did it), I can maybe understand that.

But you know what? I don’t care. I really don’t. At this point you have to accept that the years ahead for the character won’t be easy but maybe that’s a good thing. Maybe some time out of the public eye will make people more receptive to the character when he returns. As long as Superman comics continue to be made I as a Superman fan will survive.