Reinvigorating Superman

[Ascended]

The counter to this would be to a) stick with the "Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do" interpretation since general audiences can relate to a guy from Kansas a lot easier than a benevolent man-god,

Historically, these approaches haven't really proven to be any more successful than any other interpretation. Hell, since the "Clark first" mentality set in, the character hasn't equaled his previous levels of popularity. Even MoS got complaints because Clark made too many (human) mistakes and had too many (human) doubts and concerns. Besides, people expect Superman to be that bigger-than-life character; finding out he's just a regular good ol' boy would be akin to finding out that jesus couldn't pay his rent and cheated on his girlfriend. Underwhelming and disappointing. People dont *want* Superman to be a regular person, they want him to be awe-inspiring. Not that Superman has ever tried to be "god-like" in anything, but that's what people want and expect.

Besides, Clark is someone you emphasize with in an abstract way. He doesnt have the exact same problems we do, but the problems he does have are problems we can understand because, at the root, they're the same as our's. We struggle with paying the bills, Clark struggles with keeping the Fortress secure and stable (the ice caps are melting after all ). We struggle with cancelling dates because we got called into work, Clark struggles with cancelling dates because a nuke has been shot at New York. That's as close to "relatable" as Superman should get.

b) create exciting fights that stretch Superman to his limits,

That's not a problem in the least. Plenty of his rogues gallery are more powerful, or equally powerful. The problem here is that the old movies and shows relied on those "short cut" weaknesses too much (budgets, I know) and now the general audience doesn't realize that most of the people Clark fights are just as dangerous as he is. The only challenge here is scripting the fights to be as engaging as possible, and MoS succeeded in that easily. If Snyder could do it so can other directors.

c) creating interesting and personal team-up battles and relationships with his fellow Justice League members.

That can be done regardless of power level. Hell, Clark had good moments in JL with his team mates and that film was awful.

After that, then you can start easing in the "Superman is the best guy ever" interpretation because then general audiences will be more interested in multiple incarnations of the character in the same way Spider-Man and Batman have multiple interpretations in media.

People already expect Clark to be space jesus. Not giving them what they want is a gamble. Maybe it'd pay off......but it seems to me there are better, safer, more profitable ways to be subversive and play against expectations.

[LordUltimus]

Historically, these approaches haven't really proven to be any more successful than any other interpretation.

Lois and Clark, the series that introduced that quote, got four seasons, very respectable for it's time. Smallville, a show which focused on the Clark aspect to the point where he wasn't allowed to be Superman until the finale, got ten seasons.

Hell, since the "Clark first" mentality set in, the character hasn't equaled his previous levels of popularity.

The character lost his mainstream popularity because the movies started to get horrible, it had nothing to do with the "Clark first" mentality.

Even MoS got complaints because Clark made too many (human) mistakes and had too many (human) doubts and concerns.

MoS got complaints because those weren't balanced out by the smalltown hopefullness that makes Clark an endearing character. That speech about hope being like lost keys at the beginning of the Justice League movie was something MoS didn't have.

Besides, people expect Superman to be that bigger-than-life character; finding out he's just a regular good ol' boy would be akin to finding out that jesus couldn't pay his rent and cheated on his girlfriend. Underwhelming and disappointing. People dont *want* Superman to be a regular person, they want him to be awe-inspiring. Not that Superman has ever tried to be "god-like" in anything, but that's what people want and expect.

MoS and BvS had literal Jesus imagery, and people complained that they were forcing Superman to be a Christ figure, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Besides, Clark is someone you emphasize with in an abstract way. He doesnt have the exact same problems we do, but the problems he does have are problems we can understand because, at the root, they're the same as our's. We struggle with paying the bills, Clark struggles with keeping the Fortress secure and stable (the ice caps are melting after all ). We struggle with cancelling dates because we got called into work, Clark struggles with cancelling dates because a nuke has been shot at New York. That's as close to "relatable" as Superman should get.

You could say the exact same thing about Spider-Man, and he's the most relatable hero of all time.

That's not a problem in the least. Plenty of his rogues gallery are more powerful, or equally powerful. The problem here is that the old movies and shows relied on those "short cut" weaknesses too much (budgets, I know) and now the general audience doesn't realize that most of the people Clark fights are just as dangerous as he is. The only challenge here is scripting the fights to be as engaging as possible, and MoS succeeded in that easily. If Snyder could do it so can other directors.

As soon as Superman decided to kill Zod, it happened in a nanosecond. He was holding back the whole time

That can be done regardless of power level. Hell, Clark had good moments in JL with his team mates and that film was awful.

Character moments were fine, but the team-up aspect was totally mishandled as Clark was overpowering Steppenwolf on his own and trounced the rest of the League completely. Besides, once he joined the fight, Superman was basically on his own while everyone else focused elsewhere, the closest you could say did a team-up with him was Flash, and Superman comically outdid him at every turn (though the post-credits scene was cute).

People already expect Clark to be space jesus. Not giving them what they want is a gamble. Maybe it'd pay off......but it seems to me there are better, safer, more profitable ways to be subversive and play against expectations.

People expect him to be space jesus, and they don't want to see space jesus, which is why they've stopped caring about him. They don't want want him to be like that, so the audience should see something different.

[jimmy]

You could say the exact same thing about Spider-Man, and he's the most relatable hero of all time.


As soon as Superman decided to kill Zod, it happened in a nanosecond. He was holding back the whole time


Character moments were fine, but the team-up aspect was totally mishandled as Clark was overpowering Steppenwolf on his own and trounced the rest of the League completely. Besides, once he joined the fight, Superman was basically on his own while everyone else focused elsewhere, the closest you could say did a team-up with him was Flash, and Superman comically outdid him at every turn (though the post-credits scene was cute).

.

Question:
if you put it to a vote would you rather "relate to someone" or "be like someone"? I guess back in my time, every kid wanted to be like their hero, to improve ones own character along with their physical and mental abilities was the idea ie.. (Superman).

Flash Forward:
Some three plus generations later, it is more fashionable to "Relate" on a mental level, saying to one's self inwardly "hey this person is just like me, -or- I'm going through the same or similar thing"

Clark / Superman - only looks human but he is not un-Relatable:
Clark Kent should always be portrayed as Mild Mannered with a quiet confidence of a seasoned veteran I always thought that emotionally; laughter, sadness expression on friendship and care about the welfare of your fellowman(woman). The alter ego of Clark Kent filled that role extremely well, meanwhile, Superman should be feared by crooks or, the opposition that knows his capabilities. A better balance of -screen / print characterization presentation - is what is need to satisfy this equation.

Just Hold on I'm Coming:
To me - Clark was the inquisitor, fact finding investigator gathering up clues and critical information - then when things looked grim - in river of trouble, about to drown, CK - making a decision to change into Superman to clean up mess, as it were or, when life and limb are threatened.

Superman being Super:
I must admit I enjoyed seeing Superman act and do things that the entire league couldn't do that is Superman being Superman "the clean up man" the person you want in there when things are at the absolute worst.

[manwhohaseverything]

Lois and Clark, the series that introduced that quote, got four seasons, very respectable for it's time. Smallville, a show which focused on the Clark aspect to the point where he wasn't allowed to be Superman until the finale, got ten seasons.

You can't use smallville as an example. There was no Clark persona in that show until the very end. There was only the real Clark. And i am strictly against erasing the clumsiness, nervousness.. Etc from Clark kent persona(it can change with development ) . If you are going to make it as Clark is who i am interpretation and you are going to remove the parts that make him an outsider. Make him some kind of badass, cool dude. Then what is point.it would not matter wether Clark is who he is or superman is.

[LordUltimus]

I must admit I enjoyed seeing Superman act and do things that the entire league couldn't do that is Superman being Superman "the clean up man" the person you want in there when things are at the absolute worst.

Yeah, see, that's kind of the problem with the franchise. It's fine if he exists on his own world alone with just his supporting cast, but if you're more familiar with, say, Batman, seeing Superman swoop in and completely take a problem Batman could never solve like it was nothing is just going to make you resent him. You wouldn't want the Spectre to come in and deal with Mxyzptlk for Superman, would you?

[LordUltimus]

You can't use smallville as an example. There was no Clark persona in that show until the very end. There was only the real Clark. And i am strictly against erasing the clumsiness, nervousness.. Etc from Clark kent persona(it can change with development ) . If you are going to make it as Clark is who i am interpretation and you are going to remove the parts that make him an outsider. Make him some kind of badass, cool dude. Then what is point.it would not matter wether Clark is who he is or superman is.

Superman exists so Clark can have a normal life. People act differently at one job then they do at another job or in their personal life, just ask any soldier or cop.

[Yoda]

Blaming the "Clark First" take seems to only be something I see on these forums more or less. Plus, we had five years of moving away from that with the New 52 and the trajectory of comic sales was the same as any event or reboot. It's an easy target, but it's likely a lot more correlation than causation there.

[stargazer01]

Superman was the main (real) character in "Superman Returns" and it wasn't a big hit at the BO.

I think the main problem with the Singer and Snyder Superman movies was the stories and tone. They weren't fun enough, or inspirational enough and Superman wasn't confident enough or optimistic enough, etc. The tones were overall too somber, and the Snyder movies too grim and bleak. That's why movies like Aquaman and Wonder Woman and even Suicide Squad were more successful because even though they weren't totally perfect (SS was subpar), they were very entertaining and had a lot of fun and heartfelt elements. Patty Jenkins used the Donner Superman as inspiration... ironic, isn't it? Bryan Singer too but the tone and story in SR wasn't like Donner. It was pretty gloomy plus it was Luthor and real estate again...

IMO, audiences want good DC movies that don't take themselves way too seriously like Snyder did. They want heart and some fun plus a good story and exciting action. There is a reason why "The Death of Superman" animated movie was loved by most, because Clark was relatable enough through his personal life, and Superman was confident and inspirational and the movie really knew how to show him as a beacon of hope. And the action was really exciting and imipressive.

The Snyder movies I really get the sense that they see Superman through the Batman lens...

[Vakanai]

Superman was the main (real) character in "Superman Returns" and it wasn't a big hit at the BO.

I think the main problem with the Singer and Snyder Superman movies was the stories and tone. They weren't fun enough, or inspirational enough and Superman wasn't confident enough or optimistic enough, etc. The tones were overall too somber, and the Snyder movies too grim and bleak. That's why movies like Aquaman and Wonder Woman and even Suicide Squad were more successful because even though they weren't totally perfect (SS was subpar), they were very entertaining and had a lot of fun and heartfelt elements. Patty Jenkins used the Donner Superman as inspiration... ironic, isn't it? Bryan Singer too but the tone and story in SR wasn't like Donner. It was pretty gloomy plus it was Luthor and real estate again...

IMO, audiences want good DC movies that don't take themselves way too seriously like Snyder did. They want heart and some fun plus a good story and exciting action. There is a reason why "The Death of Superman" animated movie was loved by most, because Clark was relatable enough through his personal life, and Superman was confident and inspirational and the movie really knew how to show him as a beacon of hope. And the action was really exciting and imipressive.

The Snyder movies I really get the sense that they see Superman through the Batman lens...

It's pretty disappointing to me as a Superman fan that the best Superman movie in years was one were they killed him off again (the third time in a little over a decade!), but Death of Superman really just nailed the character, which feels like the first time in a while.

[stargazer01]

It's pretty disappointing to me as a Superman fan that the best Superman movie in years was one were they killed him off again (the third time in a little over a decade!), but Death of Superman really just nailed the character, which feels like the first time in a while.

The way I see it is Death of Superman was written by someone who really loved and understood Superman. And they finally did the Superman/Doomsday fight real justice, because for me BvS didn't. At all. Wonder Woman was the standout in that fight, and there is no reason why she couldn't use the kryptonite spear herself since she is immune to it. It felt pretty contrived, IMO. But the S/D fight in DoS is simply amazing and electrifying and gut-wrenching as all h3ll. The violence was justified. I knew what was going to happen but I still teared up for Supes.

Plus the movie also had heart and humor and plenty of inspirational Superman moments. You really felt how the regular citizens felt about him as a hero and friend. That's what the live action movies need, IMO. Not more aloof Superman saving people from afar. We need to see how people feel about him, how they admire and love him.

[Vakanai]

The way I see it is Death of Superman was written by someone who really loved and understood Superman. And they finally did the Superman/Doomsday fight real justice, because for me BvS didn't. At all. Wonder Woman was the standout in that fight, and there is no reason why she couldn't use the kryptonite spear herself since she is immune to it. It felt pretty contrived, IMO. But the S/D fight in DoS is simply amazing and electrifying and gut-wrenching as all h3ll. The violence was justified. I knew what was going to happen but I still teared up for Supes.

Plus the movie also had heart and humor and plenty of inspirational Superman moments. You really felt how the regular citizens felt about him as a hero and friend. That's what the live action movies need, IMO. Not more aloof Superman saving people from afar. We need to see how people feel about him, how they admire and love him.

Agreed on all of that!

[DochaDocha]

I thought Superman: Doomsday was a pretty good fight. The movie just heads in a weird direction afterward and ends up straying far away from the comic.

The only negative of the fight, IMO, is that Superman decided to create a crater (say that five times fast...) in the middle of Metropolis.

[HeroVladimir93]

I've enjoyed all the Superman vs. Doomsday fights in all three movies, but if I have to pick a favorite, it would be Batman v. Superman. Big DCEU fanboy here. There is a real sense of uneasiness and dread when Superman stares at the towering monstrosity that is Doomsday and the fight is an amazing spectacle that tells you right from the beginning that Superman might not make it out of that fight alive. Also, the DC Extended Universe treated Doomsday much better than Smallville ever did.

[stargazer01]

Agreed on all of that!

thank you!

I thought Superman: Doomsday was a pretty good fight. The movie just heads in a weird direction afterward and ends up straying far away from the comic.

The only negative of the fight, IMO, is that Superman decided to create a crater (say that five times fast...) in the middle of Metropolis.

I agree, and I love that movie too, but DoS/Reign is better overall for me.

I've enjoyed all the Superman vs. Doomsday fights in all three movies, but if I have to pick a favorite, it would be Batman v. Superman. Big DCEU fanboy here. There is a real sense of uneasiness and dread when Superman stares at the towering monstrosity that is Doomsday and the fight is an amazing spectacle that tells you right from the beginning that Superman might not make it out of that fight alive. Also, the DC Extended Universe treated Doomsday much better than Smallville ever did.

I found Doomsday in BvS very much unstoppable, I just found the fight underwhelming. It wasn't Clark's fight like it should have been. Seriously, the Death of Superman storyline needed a whole movie or 2, and at least 2 or 3 Superman movies before it to do a proper character development for the character. A lot of people (including general audiences) didn't care much when Superman died in BvS because the movies didn't get us emotionally invested for this version of the character, IMO. That's so tragic. MOS really needed at least a proper solo Superman sequel to make us really love this version.

It's a great accomplishment that the animated DoS movie got more people loving this Superman with just one movie.

[HeroVladimir93]

I found Doomsday in BvS very much unstoppable, I just found the fight underwhelming. It wasn't Clark's fight like it should have been. Seriously, the Death of Superman needed a whole movie or 2, and at least 2 or 3 Superman movies before it to do a proper character development for the character. A lot of people (including general audiences) didn't care much when Superman died in BvS because the movies didn't get us emotionally invested for this version of the character, IMO. That's so tragic. MOS really needed at least a proper solo Superman sequel to make us really fall with this version.

While there was room for improvement in Batman v. Superman, I enjoyed that movie and I do agree that Man of Steel should have gotten a proper sequel before a team-up with Batman. And no, I don't contradict myself when I say that I can enjoy Batman v. Superman and still believe we should have gotten Man of Steel 2 over Batman v. Superman.

All I ask Warner and DC for the next Superman movie/TV show is to make Superman the unequivocal protagonist instead of forcing him to share the spotlight with another superhero. Outside the comics, Warner and DC seem to have lost faith in Superman's ability to carry a story all by himself.