Reinvigorating Superman

[bigstupidjellyfish]

I feel like people don’t list Superman as one of their favorites because now people are more aware of all the different characters that exist in comics. Superman has dropped in popularity over the years, but that’s more due to bad adaptations and the idea that he’s “basically god.”

I think to go forward, we need to look back. Before he was called “The Man of Steel” and “the Man of Tomorrow” he was called the “Champion of the Oppressed.” The radio show was instrumental in tearing down the KKK, Superman targeted war profiteers and property barons, he beat up abusive husbands.

That Golden Age, New Deal sensibility was lost after “Seduction of the Innocent” was published and the Comics Code was set in place, but I think we’re now in a place where those ideas would be readily accepted by the larger public, only coming under fire from shitheads on 4chan and Twitter. It would serve as a revitalization for the character, as I think people view the character as “old fashioned” but this could remind everyone that Superman always exists in the current moment and isn’t a relic of some bygone era.

I used to think that New 52 Superman was needed to really make this work, but I don’t think that anymore. I believe that Bendis’ take is kind of pointing the character in that direction, but still it isn’t going as far I would personally go with it.

[superduperman]

Again, I ask fans why they care so much about a character's popularity, especially in the case of Superman?

Superman comics will never be cancelled.

Superman will continue to appear in DC media.

Superman movies, while likely not coming out regularly, will remain in development and eventually will be made.

Superman has dozens of movies and television shows to his media library, not to mention the thousands and thousands of Superman comics that have been published.

What does it matter if he's popular? As long as he's popular with you, that's all that should matter.

Respect for the character determines quality. The most stable universe DC has right now is one where Superman is a villain. There are three TV shows that "feature" Superman but none about him. Two of which make him look bad and the other doesn't even show him! We're getting an over saturation of Superman without Superman! And now Batman's VILLAINS are getting movies. Joker: Stand alone movie in it's own universe. Harley Quinn: Taking over the BOP movie. Batman gets what looks like another reboot (and probably will be). Actions speak for themselves.

[Vakanai]

Again, I ask fans why they care so much about a character's popularity, especially in the case of Superman?

Superman comics will never be cancelled.

Superman will continue to appear in DC media.

Superman movies, while likely not coming out regularly, will remain in development and eventually will be made.

Superman has dozens of movies and television shows to his media library, not to mention the thousands and thousands of Superman comics that have been published.

What does it matter if he's popular? As long as he's popular with you, that's all that should matter.

Because popularity means better talent gets put on the books, more risks taken like more titles and minis and graphic novels and 100 page specials, more animated movies, maybe a cartoon series, videogames that do the character justice. If Superman were more popular, we'd get more and better stuff, or at least DC/WB would make the attempt at more and better. As fans, we want more. It's only natural. I mean, I'd like another cartoon series. Or another widely regarded project like All Star. Batman is more popular than Superman right now, and has been so for almost 30 years. Guess which one of them has had more stuff the past 30 years?

Sadly people think the way to get Superman more popular is to make him more like Batman, and that's never going to work.

[manwhohaseverything]

I feel like people don’t list Superman as one of their favorites because now people are more aware of all the different characters that exist in comics. Superman has dropped in popularity over the years, but that’s more due to bad adaptations and the idea that he’s “basically god.”

I think to go forward, we need to look back. Before he was called “The Man of Steel” and “the Man of Tomorrow” he was called the “Champion of the Oppressed.” The radio show was instrumental in tearing down the KKK, Superman targeted war profiteers and property barons, he beat up abusive husbands.

That Golden Age, New Deal sensibility was lost after “Seduction of the Innocent” was published and the Comics Code was set in place, but I think we’re now in a place where those ideas would be readily accepted by the larger public, only coming under fire from shitheads on 4chan and Twitter. It would serve as a revitalization for the character, as I think people view the character as “old fashioned” but this could remind everyone that Superman always exists in the current moment and isn’t a relic of some bygone era.

I used to think that New 52 Superman was needed to really make this work, but I don’t think that anymore. I believe that Bendis’ take is kind of pointing the character in that direction, but still it isn’t going as far I would personally go with it.

I haven't seen anything from Bendis's superman that screamed "Champion of oppressed". I don't like takes that betray the core of Superman for me. Him being a allegory for someone in service sector like a police man, firefighter.. Etc. His first s sheild is basically a police badge.

[kingaliencracker]

Respect for the character determines quality. The most stable universe DC has right now is one where Superman is a villain. There are three TV shows that "feature" Superman but none about him. Two of which make him look bad and the other doesn't even show him! We're getting an over saturation of Superman without Superman! And now Batman's VILLAINS are getting movies. Joker: Stand alone movie in it's own universe. Harley Quinn: Taking over the BOP movie. Batman gets what looks like another reboot (and probably will be). Actions speak for themselves.

I don't think WB lacks respect for Superman. The fact is that Batman is much more popular. Aquaman and Wonder Woman made more money than Man of Steel. That's not WB's fault - that's a paradigm shift with the current fanbase.

The last two DC animated features were Superman movies, so they're not ignoring him. As far as Batman villains getting their own spinoffs...again, Batman is a much more popular character. That's not WB's fault or a lack of promotion for Superman. That's squarely on the fanbase and how they feel about Superman versus Batman.

[kingaliencracker]

Because popularity means better talent gets put on the books, more risks taken like more titles and minis and graphic novels and 100 page specials, more animated movies, maybe a cartoon series, videogames that do the character justice. If Superman were more popular, we'd get more and better stuff, or at least DC/WB would make the attempt at more and better. As fans, we want more. It's only natural. I mean, I'd like another cartoon series. Or another widely regarded project like All Star. Batman is more popular than Superman right now, and has been so for almost 30 years. Guess which one of them has had more stuff the past 30 years?

Sadly people think the way to get Superman more popular is to make him more like Batman, and that's never going to work.

Well, regardless of how fans feel about him, Bendis was a huge coup for DC and his first major project was Superman. That doesn't seem like DC is struggling in getting talent for Superman. As I stated before, the last two DC animated movies were centered around Superman.

Again, this whole popularity thing isn't WB's or DC's fault. This is how the fanbase has shifted over the last 30+ years.

[Vordan]

I don't think WB lacks respect for Superman. The fact is that Batman is much more popular. Aquaman and Wonder Woman made more money than Man of Steel. That's not WB's fault - that's a paradigm shift with the current fanbase.

The last two DC animated features were Superman movies, so they're not ignoring him. As far as Batman villains getting their own spinoffs...again, Batman is a much more popular character. That's not WB's fault or a lack of promotion for Superman. That's squarely on the fanbase and how they feel about Superman versus Batman.

It is WB’s fault though. Guys like Kevin Smith have talked about the utterly moronic ideas some of the WB higher-ups have had over the years. Superman Returns was deemed a failure even though it made more money than Batman Begins because WB expected it to recoup not only its own costs but all the costs incurred by previous failed Superman movies like Superman Lives.

Then there’s the DCEU where Snyder got the job because he was willing to go straight to shooting because WB wanted a Superman movie out in time to keep the rights, quality be damned. Then after MoS proved divisive they let Snyder take control of the entire freaking DCU. The New 52 came out because Didio and Lee supposedly got told to get profits up or else, and so they rebooted. They are absolutely partly to blame for the current status quo.

You cannot freaking convince me that where we are at isn’t at least in some part due to the idiotic decisions WB has made. It’s not a coincidence that the two most successful movies, WW and Aquaman went under WB’s radar and had a comic guy like Johns heavily involved.

[HeroVladimir93]

It is WB’s fault though. Guys like Kevin Smith have talked about the utterly moronic ideas some of the WB higher-ups have had over the years. Superman Returns was deemed a failure even though it made more money than Batman Begins because WB expected it to recoup not only its own costs but all the costs incurred by previous failed Superman movies like Superman Lives.

Then there’s the DCEU where Snyder got the job because he was willing to go straight to shooting because WB wanted a Superman movie out in time to keep the rights, quality be damned. Then after MoS proved divisive they let Snyder take control of the entire freaking DCU. The New 52 came out because Didio and Lee supposedly got told to get profits up or else, and so they rebooted. They are absolutely partly to blame for the current status quo.

You cannot freaking convince me that where we are at isn’t at least in some part due to the idiotic decisions WB has made. It’s not a coincidence that the two most successful movies, WW and Aquaman went under WB’s radar and had a comic guy like Johns heavily involved.

By the end of the day, when an adaptation of a beloved character gets made, the only thing fans ask of the production team is to respect the property. I've enjoyed the DCEU Superman movies but I'm willing to see both sides of the debate. I agree that WB should make an active and serious effort in getting Superman to return to the mainstream media, but they should have a long-term plan for it. They can't just throw everything they have to the wall and see what it sticks. Superman deserves better.

[kingaliencracker]

It is WB’s fault though. Guys like Kevin Smith have talked about the utterly moronic ideas some of the WB higher-ups have had over the years. Superman Returns was deemed a failure even though it made more money than Batman Begins because WB expected it to recoup not only its own costs but all the costs incurred by previous failed Superman movies like Superman Lives.

To be fair, they had some pretty moronic ideas for Batman as well, and some of that actually got into Batman films (see Batman Forever and Batman & Robin). They also had some pretty moronic ideas for Green Lantern (a comedy starring Jack Black) and the Justice League. It's not something exclusive to Superman.

Superman Returns may have made SLIGHTLY more money than Batman Begins, but it also cost more to make (even excluding the production costs of the failed Superman movies) and had more negative fan and critical reaction to it.

Then there’s the DCEU where Snyder got the job because he was willing to go straight to shooting because WB wanted a Superman movie out in time to keep the rights, quality be damned. Then after MoS proved divisive they let Snyder take control of the entire freaking DCU. The New 52 came out because Didio and Lee supposedly got told to get profits up or else, and so they rebooted. They are absolutely partly to blame for the current status quo.

The New 52 had almost nothing to do with Superman, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.

As far as Snyder, I don't disagree with you. But I also liked Man of Steel and the only real difference between it and Wonder Woman and Aquaman is that it didn't include moments of levity that were organic to those latter films.

[Vakanai]

I don't think WB lacks respect for Superman. The fact is that Batman is much more popular. Aquaman and Wonder Woman made more money than Man of Steel. That's not WB's fault - that's a paradigm shift with the current fanbase.

I wouldn't call it a shift with the current fanbase - for most people MOS was not the Superman they wanted, dark and brooding just no, whereas WW and Aquaman was, light and fun.

Well, regardless of how fans feel about him, Bendis was a huge coup for DC and his first major project was Superman. That doesn't seem like DC is struggling in getting talent for Superman. As I stated before, the last two DC animated movies were centered around Superman.

Again, this whole popularity thing isn't WB's or DC's fault. This is how the fanbase has shifted over the last 30+ years.

The talent thing was more a general thing than a knock on Bendis, since I read trades and graphic novels only and am new to the comic reading fandom and still going through the collecting the classic storylines phase (money issues and lack of a LCS prevent me from keeping up with a monthly series, trades are kinder on the wallet than single issues). But as a newbie getting into comics I found when looking up the best of and classics any fan should have list, Batman has more titles recommended for people getting into this than Superman does. That's what I mean by talent, more teams should be working on the mini-and-maxi series and graphic novels and so forth that helped build up Batman's long list of titles every newbie should have. And those last two animated movies came after something of a draught in Superman movies. As a fan, I'd like seeing those movies roll out a bit more often, I get at least two or more Batman DTVs a year (counting not just the shared universe DTVs, but also things like the two Adam West cartoon movies, Batman Ninja, Batman Unlimited, etc.). Superman went some years between that Brainiac movie and Death/Reign.

And again, don't blame the fans. People didn't change, the Superman we got on screen changed.

[manwhohaseverything]

I thought superman returns had a rotten tomato score of above 70, i mean it's fresh. A metacrtic had 72%. How is it a critical failure?

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

It is WB’s fault though. Guys like Kevin Smith have talked about the utterly moronic ideas some of the WB higher-ups have had over the years. Superman Returns was deemed a failure even though it made more money than Batman Begins because WB expected it to recoup not only its own costs but all the costs incurred by previous failed Superman movies like Superman Lives.

Then there’s the DCEU where Snyder got the job because he was willing to go straight to shooting because WB wanted a Superman movie out in time to keep the rights, quality be damned. Then after MoS proved divisive they let Snyder take control of the entire freaking DCU. The New 52 came out because Didio and Lee supposedly got told to get profits up or else, and so they rebooted. They are absolutely partly to blame for the current status quo.

You cannot freaking convince me that where we are at isn’t at least in some part due to the idiotic decisions WB has made. It’s not a coincidence that the two most successful movies, WW and Aquaman went under WB’s radar and had a comic guy like Johns heavily involved.

Here’s the thing though, it’s easy to diss failures as the result of stupidity when we have the benefit of hindsight. I’m not fond of any of the modern Superman movies, but I can see why WB’s decisions might have made sense at the time. Get the guy who made the hit x-men movies to do a Superman that builds on the well loved donner movies. Sounds about right........Get the guy who made 300 and have Nolan produce a gritty Superman reboot in response to the success of the dk trilogy and in an attempt to differentiate from the light hearted MCU. Sound logic there.......Ok that had mixed results, maybe put Batman in the sequel? Oof,..... let’s get the guy who directed the avengers to course correct the Justice League,.......well ****.
Not saying they shouldn’t have taken their time and planned better but it is what it is. You win some, you lose some.
I didn’t know about SR making more than BB, but even if it did, is anyone all that torn up about not getting a follow up to that movie?

[kingaliencracker]

I thought superman returns had a rotten tomato score of above 70, i mean it's fresh. A metacrtic had 72%. How is it a critical failure?

Who said Superman Returns was a critical failure?

[Vordan]

Here’s the thing though, it’s easy to diss failures as the result of stupidity when we have the benefit of hindsight. I’m not fond of any of the modern Superman movies, but I can see why WB’s decisions might have made sense at the time. Get the guy who made the hit x-men movies to do a Superman that builds on the well loved donner movies. Sounds about right........Get the guy who made 300 and have Nolan produce a gritty Superman reboot in response to the success of the dk trilogy and in an attempt to differentiate from the light hearted MCU. Sound logic there.......Ok that had mixed results, maybe put Batman in the sequel? Oof,..... let’s get the guy who directed the avengers to course correct the Justice League,.......well ****.
Not saying they shouldn’t have taken their time and planned better but it is what it is. You win some, you lose some.
I didn’t know about SR making more than BB, but even if it did, is anyone all that torn up about not getting a follow up to that movie?

The next one was going to be Brainiac so I’m kinda disappointed? Not that I think it would’ve been all that great, but man I’m just mad how every time WB tells the same trite Lex/Zod/Origin story they then stop and reboot so they can tell it again. It’s why even though I’m not a fan of Snyder I’d prefer they move forward with DCEU Supes because at least Snyder did the Unholy Trinity of Origin/Death/Turns evil. We got the stupid Batgod fight already too. Now we can tell a story with Brainiac or Mongul but of course NOW WB is fridging the character.

[kingaliencracker]

I wouldn't call it a shift with the current fanbase - for most people MOS was not the Superman they wanted, dark and brooding just no, whereas WW and Aquaman was, light and fun.

The Dark Knight Trilogy were dark and brooding films, yet they made tons of money for WB.

I don't think dark and brooding has anything to do with it. I just don't think there's a huge market for Superman the way some die hard Superman fans feel there is.

The talent thing was more a general thing than a knock on Bendis, since I read trades and graphic novels only and am new to the comic reading fandom and still going through the collecting the classic storylines phase (money issues and lack of a LCS prevent me from keeping up with a monthly series, trades are kinder on the wallet than single issues). But as a newbie getting into comics I found when looking up the best of and classics any fan should have list, Batman has more titles recommended for people getting into this than Superman does. That's what I mean by talent, more teams should be working on the mini-and-maxi series and graphic novels and so forth that helped build up Batman's long list of titles every newbie should have. And those last two animated movies came after something of a draught in Superman movies. As a fan, I'd like seeing those movies roll out a bit more often, I get at least two or more Batman DTVs a year (counting not just the shared universe DTVs, but also things like the two Adam West cartoon movies, Batman Ninja, Batman Unlimited, etc.). Superman went some years between that Brainiac movie and Death/Reign.

And again, don't blame the fans. People didn't change, the Superman we got on screen changed.

Well, again, Batman IS more popular than Superman. He has been for many years. He's also easier to write and can usually sell regardless of the content of the story. Naturally, writers will gravitate towards a character like Batman versus Superman. And given that Batman makes significantly more money for WB than Superman does currently, it makes sense for them to release more Batman products and media than Superman.

I'm not blaming fans. I just think fans believe that WB and DC should invest hugely into Superman when the market doesn't dictate for them to do that.