Reinvigorating Superman

[bigstupidjellyfish]

I don't know if he can ever be #1 again but Supes definitely has the elements to be competitive though. Wonder Woman has had relatively few multimedia exploits but everytime she gets one it's a success. Batman and Superman have similar amounts of multimedia exposure but Batman is able to maintain a much stronger success to failure rate. I think this is largely because the core of Wonder Woman and Batman have been preserved over the years and Superman's has not.

But what I know is that farmboy isn't the way. We need to get back to the characters golden age roots and use that as the basis for the modern view of the character.

That’s what I said! Great minds think alike.

[kingaliencracker]

Some of us feel like his recent failures have more to do with the creative choices and bureaucracy rather than the character and it’s annoying. To be blunt: I fully believe Supes could make a billion dollars. A big CGI Action-comedy where Supes gets dragged out to Warworld? I think that could be a huge hit. You seem to believe that the problem is more people don’t like the character as a whole rather than them rejecting Snyder’s interpretation which I don’t really agree with. This forum is definitely not representative of the general public, but neither is social media as a whole. Twitter and Facebook live in bubbles.

I'm not saying a Superman film couldn't make a billion dollars.

I'm saying whether a Superman film does or doesn't make a billion dollars has no bearing on how I feel about the character, or the vast media and comic books the character has been in over the past 80 years 30+ which I've been a fan. I liked Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. I could give a rip how divisive they were or that they were less successful than Aquaman. I feel blessed that my favorite character has been the 2nd most publicized character in DC history, outside of Batman. I do think that Superman fans overvalue his place and put blame elsewhere when he doesn't succeed.

This whole thread stemmed form a discussion about how frustrating it was that Aquaman made a billion dollars and Superman didn't. That stuff doesn't bother me the way it does other fans here.

[Vordan]

I'm not saying a Superman film couldn't make a billion dollars.

I'm saying whether a Superman film does or doesn't make a billion dollars has no bearing on how I feel about the character, or the vast media and comic books the character has been in over the past 80 years 30+ which I've been a fan. I liked Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. I could give a rip how divisive they were or that they were less successful than Aquaman. I feel blessed that my favorite character has been the 2nd most publicized character in DC history, outside of Batman. I do think that Superman fans overvalue his place and put blame elsewhere when he doesn't succeed.

This whole thread stemmed form a discussion about how frustrating it was that Aquaman made a billion dollars and Superman didn't. That stuff doesn't bother me the way it does other fans here.

Heh I feel like we’re arguing in circles here. As a Superman fan I will survive as long as Superman comics continue to be made, so I’m with you on that. But also as a Superman fan I want to see the character enjoy success in other realms too, whether that’s movies, games, whatever. The frustration comes from seeing him being mishandled by guys who don’t seem to respect or understand the character when as a fan I’d kill to write him, and I see other characters get treated very well.

[kingaliencracker]

Heh I feel like we’re arguing in circles here. As a Superman fan I will survive as long as Superman comics continue to be made, so I’m with you on that. But also as a Superman fan I want to see the character enjoy success in other realms too, whether that’s movies, games, whatever. The frustration comes from seeing him being mishandled by guys who don’t seem to respect or understand the character when as a fan I’d kill to write him, and I see other characters get treated very well.

What other characters have been treated better than Superman other than Batman, the VERY recent and isolated success of the Wonder Woman and Aquaman films not included?

Besides Batman, no other DC character has appeared in more media, has more video games, has more comic books published, and has more merchandise for sale than Superman.

If the success of Wonder Woman and Aquaman lead to them appearing in more films, or having animated films, or having video games, or getting better talent on their books, or getting animated shows at the expense of Superman, then I think this popularity conversation would have more merit and I'd be willing to agree with some of your points. Until then I think this is more of a personal frustration among some fans than it is an actual issue.

[Yoda]

I think Aquaman's success is the best thing for the next Superman movie. It was big, bright, colorful, fun and had great characters. Including Mera and his mom. All for that informing their next go at Superman. We'll get a great movie.

Plus, movies are basically just like comic reboots. They give the character a boost for a few years then interest shifts again. I'd actually prefer a TV series over another movie. Particularly if you're interested in a smaller scale champion of the oppressed take. There's no chance in hell of a big screen version of that.

And his comics within the context of 2019 comic market are doing pretty well. It's still one of the best selling DC books and Bendis guarantees great artists. We have a Superman centric event coming this summer. It's a pretty good time to be a Superman comic fan. I mean, you all remember Grounded right?

[The World]

Well, Superman is competitive. Outside of Batman he's still WB's and DC's most used character.

Wonder Woman had a great movie. But her animated feature (which I believe was a better structured film than her live action movie) sold so poorly that it forced WB to cancel all follow up films. Her comics have remained in publication only because DC has to continually publish Wonder Woman comics. Otherwise, her sales at many points in her history would have dictated DC cancel her title. It's not a fluke that she has had very minimal spin off titles, events, or crossovers.

Aquaman had a great movie. But up until that movie he was a joke among comic book fans and had his book canceled how many times?

I love Superman. I am anxiously awaiting a new Superman movie and video game and animated series as everyone else here is. But I also understand where the market has been and I'm very excited that characters like Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Captain Marvel (the REAL Captain Marvel) are getting the recognition and due I feel they deserve, even if that's a little bit at the expense of Superman.

When I say competitive I mean in terms of success. He blows away %99 of DC's roster when it comes to exposure but his success rate was poor before the Superhero boom and now that we're in it he just kind of looks like yesteryear concept. I mean I certainly don't need Superman to do well to enjoy him but I do think the character is capable of shooting for the stars when for a while now he's just been shooting for what's manageable.

Looking up wikipedia shows that Diana's one animated movie grossed around 8.7 million, more that all but a hand full of DC's animated output. Relative to the rest of the pack her movie did pretty good maybe it wasn't enough for DC's standards but alot of their output falls far below that including numerous Superman, Justice League, and Batman features. Critically the movie was very well received, much like her live action movie, and the Linda Carter tv show. When people throw Diana's fanbase a bone they make do. The comics are relatively small potatoes, Batman is estimated to have sold around 460 million copies since 1940 where as One Piece has only been running since the 1997 and has already sold around 455 million. Comics are a poor judge of relative character popularity.

In the 90's when Superman had L&C Batman had B:TAS. TAS was a far purer distillation of what makes Batman work as a character, it was near mythic in it's quality and oozed style and that extended to much of the other products that followed it. L&C just wasn't, it was Superman based off an already heavily revised era and then mixed in with the popular tropes of that era for television. Same with smallville. Same with SR. Same with Snyderverse. Like wise with Wonder Woman there's always an attempt to maintain the inherent core of the character. You kind of got that in the Timmverse with Supes but that was it imo.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't think Superman is as popular with comic book fans or movie goers as fans HERE in this thread thinks he is, no. And I don't think that has anything to do with WB or DC, but rather a shift in overall fandom (including comic book and move goers) over the past 30+ years.

I think most die hard Superman fans have a belief otherwise, and I consider myself a die hard Superman fan (I own every single Superman comic book published since 1983, the only character I can stake that claim to, not to mention the 7 Superman tattoos I have, also the only comic book character I can stake that claim to). But the market doesn't support that, at least not recently But again, I go back to my point in that what does Superman's perceived popularity matter to you? We've had 6 live action Superman films, the Superman serials, 4 television shows (5 if you count Supergirl), I couldn't even tell you how many animated shows he's had, and he's been featured in numerous other DC media adaptations. There certainly isn't a lack of Superman compared to other DC properties sans Batman. WB nor DC will ever stop marketing or pushing or developing Superman. He may take a backseat to other DC properties, but he's not going anywhere. So again, why stress about it?

I did not say anything about popularity. I don't care what others like, i only care about what i like. People are only complaining about inability of WB to understand superman and how they haven't been able to make a good mainstream adaptation yet.
The things they do with superman currently are kill him, make him evil so that he can job to any idiot,nerf him so that he doesn't get in the way of other heroes(Justice league move only exception evn though it was unbalanced ) ... Etc. Superman is a power fantasy. His audience should be kids, young adult and then family audiences first. That is just my opinion.We also have a problem with making Lois lane center of Clark's morality.
Basically, people are complaining about bad adaptations and them just repeating same old ****. Seriously, they need to give zod and lex a rest. There are ways to measure popularity. And it's affects on box office has been trivial. His merchandise has been selling ok from what i gather.

[jimmy]

Again, I ask fans why they care so much about a character's popularity, especially in the case of Superman?

Superman comics will never be cancelled.

Superman will continue to appear in DC media.

Superman movies, while likely not coming out regularly, will remain in development and eventually will be made.

Superman has dozens of movies and television shows to his media library, not to mention the thousands and thousands of Superman comics that have been published.

What does it matter if he's popular? As long as he's popular with you, that's all that should matter.

Yes, popular with ones own self is important, and in the whole scheme of things - that is what should really matter! However - I would surmise that a good amount of people like to be on the popular "band wagon" even though that popularity maybe false or coerced by other's opinion.

I guess the question to ask is "what really makes things / people" popular?

[Osiris-Rex]

I didn’t know that either. Weird how that movie looks like it was actually a modest successful on paper. Maybe it was a mistake to not just make a sequel to that one.

The writer's strike killed the Superman Returns sequel. By the time that got sorted out a lot of the Superman Returns players had moved onto other project so WB had to basically start over.
So when they had to hire a new director, Zack Snyder, they let him make the movie he wanted to make. So he did Man of Steel instead of Superman Returns 2, or whatever the sequel was
going to be called.

I don't know if he can ever be #1 again but Supes definitely has the elements to be competitive though. Wonder Woman has had relatively few multimedia exploits but everytime she gets one it's a success. Batman and Superman have similar amounts of multimedia exposure but Batman is able to maintain a much stronger success to failure rate. I think this is largely because the core of Wonder Woman and Batman have been preserved over the years and Superman's has not.
.

If you don't count the failed NBC 2011 pilot for a Wonder Woman TV series that Adrianne Palicki (The Orville's Commander Kelly Grayson) was going to star in.

[jimmy]

Again, I ask fans why they care so much about a character's popularity, especially in the case of Superman?

Superman comics will never be cancelled.

Superman will continue to appear in DC media.

Superman movies, while likely not coming out regularly, will remain in development and eventually will be made.

Superman has dozens of movies and television shows to his media library, not to mention the thousands and thousands of Superman comics that have been published.

What does it matter if he's popular? As long as he's popular with you, that's all that should matter.

Yes, popular with ones own self is important, and in the whole scheme of things - that is what should really matter! However - I would surmise that a good amount of people like to be on the popular "band wagon" even though that popularity maybe false or coerced by other's opinion.

I guess the question to ask is "what really makes things / people" popular?

[superduperman]

I don't buy this idea that fans are the reason Superman isn't more popular. Fans didn't force the CW to make a Supergirl show that nerfs Superman. Fans didn't hand off the movie franchise to someone who clearly would rather be working on Batman. Or Punisher. Fans didn't make the DCAU version of the JL Batman's sidekicks. They keep giving Superman over to people who don't like him. If a character is more popular, it's because the people in charge went out of their way to make them that way. Sorry but when an Aquaman movie does better than a Superman movie, it's because they actually put the effort into the Aquaman movie that they didn't put into the Superman movie. It's that simple. I may think that something like All Star is overrated but at least Morrison actually wanted to do it. Ditto New 52. These things worked because they were made by people who actually wanted to make them. I honestly believe that one really good Superman movie would turn his popularity around. I still do. But I honestly think the only way that can happen is if the DCEU dies. I don't know that it can be salvaged at this point. I'm one of the few people who actually liked JL and saw it as an attempt to turn things around. Apparently I'm in the minority on that one.

[Uncanny Mutie]

Most Superman projects are clearly being made by Batman fans who don't care about Superman.

So true and so sad.

[stargazer01]

Popularity goes up and down. But it takes the right material to make something old new again. Aquaman worked because it got a director that knows how to make popular movies that audiences want to see. Sadly, Superman didn't get that w/ Snyder (and Singer). His movies aren't bad, IMO. The stories are valid and have meaning. The problem is that he didn't undertand who Superman truly is; IMO, Superman is bright, and more optimistic and charismatic than what he showed. His movies looked great and were epic, but they were not fun or very engaging for many people. His Superman/Clark was too sad. Yeah, no wonder it bored audiences. Snyder simply wasn't the man for the job. His work delighted some fans, but it was overall very divisive.

Make Superman fun again. And charismatic and brighter. With a good story and plot and cast and new and cool villains, I'm sure his movies can be more successful and excite more people. Write the characters like he needs and people will like him again. Superman has a lot of hardcore fans, but it's the general audiences who make the big $$. And they just want fun and exciting blockbuster movies. WB needs to understand that what worked for Batman DOES NOT work for Superman, because Supes is a totally different character. James Wan undertood that, so did Patty J.

And those fans who think Superman needs to be #1 all the time, well, no. That's not realistic. He has his place high up, and for his fans he's the best forever. But noone stays at the top all the time. Not even Batman. Now Aquaman is king of the BO because he got the movie audiences needed and wanted to see. It's about timing and doing what works best for a character. I'm not saying Superman has no depth. He has and a lot. But when his movies are so somber and unfun, you can't expect people to go on mass. And Superman is a family character for the most part. His mainstream movies/shows should be family friendly.

WB have made a lot of $$ out of the character, but they need to treat him with respect and do what's best for him in all media. Death of Superman movie was really great. It got the character like I think he should be, with his charm, his determination, his loving and caring nature, his confidence and optimism and his power in place. And he didn't feel like a Chris Reeve clone. Lois wasn't a Margot Kidder clone either. Peter Tomasi understands this character and what makes him exciting. We need more creatives like him for the live action mediums.

[Vakanai]

The Dark Knight Trilogy were dark and brooding films, yet they made tons of money for WB.

I don't think dark and brooding has anything to do with it. I just don't think there's a huge market for Superman the way some die hard Superman fans feel there is.

The point wasn't that dark and brooding is bad, but that dark and brooding Superman is. The tone should fit the character.

Well, again, Batman IS more popular than Superman. He has been for many years.

Yes, because of the success with the movies and cartoons. Which was my point. Batman's popularity over Superman didn't happen because the character is better, but because since the late 80s he's had a serious push in outside media.

He's also easier to write

Disagree. Why should he be that much harder to write? Too powerful? He has villains who can hurt him. Not relatable? Dude's just trying to juggle his work life and love life and personal life like most other people, but with superheroics on top of it.

and can usually sell regardless of the content of the story.

So could Superman once upon a time.

Naturally, writers will gravitate towards a character like Batman versus Superman.

Why? What makes Batman better than Supes for writers?

And given that Batman makes significantly more money for WB than Superman does currently, it makes sense for them to release more Batman products and media than Superman.

But the reason Batman makes so much more money than Superman is because he's more popular because they released more Batman projects. The push in media since 89 made Batman popular which made him sell more which pushed more product which made him more popular. Had the Donner films been made not in the late 70s/early 80s, but in the late 80/early 90s, followed by STAS before BTAS, eventually followed by a Superman Beyond, and then a Superman Begins, do you really think Batman would be that much more popular than Superman? But Superman went practically 20 years between S4 and Returns, STAS was made after BTAS by a team that preferred Bats, with no sequel series. Then when Supes did get films again it was just bad luck with Returns and then MOS tried to ape the tone of TDK. It was never because Superman is harder to write or was less appealing out the gate, it was that they thought they could forget about him for nearly two decades outside the comics and a couple TV things and pick right back up to huge success while ignoring what made him popular before they stopped pushing him.

I'm not blaming fans. I just think fans believe that WB and DC should invest hugely into Superman when the market doesn't dictate for them to do that.

No, fans just want them to actually do Superman justice when they do invest in him. You can't invest in him yet get him wrong and say there's no market for him. If you're going to make a Superman product, actually make it feel like a Superman product, and then see if it sells or not.

[objectivewatcher2013]

You can start reinvigorating Superman by taking off those stupid red diaper trunks that Bendis put back on him.