Reinvigorating Superman

[Osiris-Rex]

When he fought Deegan who took his form, Deegan nearly had the upper hand. He's had those powers for all of five minutes! Superman had them his whole life! How is that possible? Deegan shouldn't have even been able to get the book away from him. Yet he was throwing him through buildings and was clearly winning. Just from a technical standpoint that doesn't make a lot of sense. You can't even argue it was to make Kara look good because she was off doing something else completely unrelated! And, yes, the comment he made at the end of season two still bothers me. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. Her being stronger than him doesn't bother me all that much. I'm sure they can come up with some in-universe explanation for it. Female Kryptonians process sunlight more efficiently than males or something like that. But just the fact that in every situation they put him in, he either gets his ass handed to him or makes rookie mistakes. Like when he punched Amazo into the ground knowing full well he absorbs powers.

Deegan was altering reality. Of course Deegan would have himself be stronger than Superman in Deegan's reality. And Supergirl gets her ass handed to her in almost every episode too. Mostly to make Alex look good. If we want to complain about, that all the heroes get nerfed down. Look how many times Flash gets nerfed down to make Iris look good. Or Felicity knows best. I still don't see where Superman is made to look physically weaker than Supergirl. Deegan took care of Supergirl fairly easily too. Plus it was Superman that took on Amazo while Supergirl just stood there and watched. I don't think Superman expected Amazo to dig himself out of the deep hole Superman put Amazo in. He did look rather surprised when Amazo popped up again. And it took all three of them, Superman, Supergirl, and Oliver Flash just to hold Amazo while Barry Arrow delivered the arrow to destroy Amazo.

[Osiris-Rex]

This is why I don't watch the Supergirl TV show. Superman gets humiliated and dragged through the mud just so that Supergirl can look so much better. This is a problem Superman faces when he is a supporting character in someone else's story. He gets brought down several pegs just to prop up or propel a new character forward. This just gives off the impression that Superman doesn't have anything to offer to Supergirl, that Supergirl doesn't need him. I get it, it's her TV show and she needs to be validated as a protagonist, but it didn't have to come off at Superman's expense.

There in lies the problem. Because if you actually did watch Supergirl you would know that none of this happens on the Supergirl TV show itself. Nowhere is Superman dragged through the mud to make Supergirl look better.
Nowhere is Superman humiliated. You aren't aware that Superman has rescued Supergirl several times. And they have worked together several times to save the day with neither one shown to be superior to the other one.
Superman is treated with the utmost respect by everyone on the Supergirl TV show. Much better than he has been treated in the recent movies.

[superduperman]

Deegan was altering reality. Of course Deegan would have himself be stronger than Superman in Deegan's reality. And Supergirl gets her ass handed to her in almost every episode too. Mostly to make Alex look good. If we want to complain about, that all the heroes get nerfed down. Look how many times Flash gets nerfed down to make Iris look good. Or Felicity knows best. I still don't see where Superman is made to look physically weaker than Supergirl. Deegan took care of Supergirl fairly easily too. Plus it was Superman that took on Amazo while Supergirl just stood there and watched. I don't think Superman expected Amazo to dig himself out of the deep hole Superman put Amazo in. He did look rather surprised when Amazo popped up again. And it took all three of them, Superman, Supergirl, and Oliver Flash just to hold Amazo while Barry Arrow delivered the arrow to destroy Amazo.

It just feels like every time we see him he's either hypnotized or getting beat by someone. If we're going to have a spin-off show, I'd like to see him get an improvement in his portrayal.

[stargazer01]

It just feels like every time we see him he's either hypnotized or getting beat by someone. If we're going to have a spin-off show, I'd like to see him get an improvement in his portrayal.

I totally agree. Besides the first 2 eps in season 2, for me Superman is a total tool in the show used mostly to make Kara look superior and better. Heck, he even tells her how she is so much stronger and than he could ever be... This show is so heavy handed is unwatchable.

[Soubhagya]

I have an idea which would be considered controversial for many fans. But it needs to be discussed.

I think in other media a weaker Superman works better. Superman who performs all these herculean feats. But he struggles with that. Look at the dynamic Fleischer cartoons. There are a number of people here who dislike Superman:TAS. But its animation and action sequences were top notch. It carried over to Justice League animated which turned out to be pretty successful. Its hard to come up with thrilling action sequences on the screen when the hero is this powerful.

In comics it enhances Superman. You have thought bubbles and text. And no motion picture can display speed as comics can. But i haven't seen it work as good in other media. I love the Man of Steel's action. Its among the favorite action sequences i have ever seen in a superhero movie. But how many people can direct action like Zack Snyder? And even these scenes don't work for a number of people. Perhaps, the upcoming Captain Marvel will change my mind. What do people think? Perhaps the DCAU team was right.

[HeroVladimir93]

I have an idea which would be considered controversial for many fans. But it needs to be discussed.

I think in other media a weaker Superman works better. Superman who performs all these herculean feats. But he struggles with that. Look at the dynamic Fleischer cartoons. There are a number of people here who dislike Superman:TAS. But its animation and action sequences were top notch. It carried over to Justice League animated which turned out to be pretty successful. Its hard to come up with thrilling action sequences on the screen when the hero is this powerful.

In comics it enhances Superman. You have thought bubbles and text. And no motion picture can display speed as comics can. But i haven't seen it work as good in other media. I love the Man of Steel's action. Its among the favorite action sequences i have ever seen in a superhero movie. But how many people can direct action like Zack Snyder? And even these scenes don't work for a number of people. Perhaps, the upcoming Captain Marvel will change my mind. What do people think? Perhaps the DCAU team was right.

Superman doesn't need to be astronomically powerful in every story he appears in, but at the same time, I don't want Superman to look like one of the weaker superheroes, like what happened in the early episodes of Justice League. Say what you will about Man of Steel, but at least that movie did one of the best portrayals of Superman's power in recent years. I think Man of Steel set up a high bar on how to deliver action sequences in future Superman adaptations. That's why I think any villain in future Superman adaptations should be a true physical challenge to Superman, instead of just trying to deceive Superman with complex villainous schemes.

[Soubhagya]

I think Superman shall be more tech savy. In a way its stealing from Iron Man. Nothing bad about taking ideas from others.

I was reading the come up with a Superman story thread. And one of the ideas which caught my attention was using the Sherlock method to show what Superman is seeing. Sherlock show for the people who don't know has an imaginative method to show Sherlock Holmes' deductions. They use something like word bubbles at appropriate places. Something like this.



Bendis is playing with that idea. I love that. Now you do something like this. Superman wears contact lenses during his super adventures. They show texts and images. Text which give analysis of a situation. Something Iron Man does too. But the change is its not the AI coming up with the analysis. Its Supernan himself. The text simply presents his thoughts in a written form. It sort of helps him in organizing his thoughts. (Just like we write notes to be organized).

And you can easily show that in live action. He perceives the world differently.

[The Overlord]

Jerry Siegel was right, Superman doesn't work without the love triangle.

Man of Steel was a slap in the face to everything Siegel thought Superman should be.

That seems like a nerd nostalgia argument than something that has a good argument behind it, the love triangle is good because it was past and because it was in the past, it is good now, never find that seems creepy now, with Superman being a serial liar who gaslights Lois all the time. That will not work in 2019.

For my money its all about balance, a good balance between the silly and serious, do not turn Superman into a farce but do not have him become so self-serious that nothing is fun and Superman is just a Batman clone in terms of personality. Have over the top stuff happen, but treat with it pathos, unless you have a comedy issue in between the bigger story arcs. You also have cosmic stories where he fights Brainiac or Mongul, but have some smaller stories where Superman deals with real issues, heck they did that back in the 1940s, I think Superman should fight for the little people, not just be a maintainer of the status quo.

[HeroVladimir93]

That seems like a nerd nostalgia argument than something that has a good argument behind it, the love triangle is good because it was past and because it was in the past, it is good now, never find that seems creepy now, with Superman being a serial liar who gaslights Lois all the time. That will not work in 2019.

For my money its all about balance, a good balance between the silly and serious, do not turn Superman into a farce but do not have him become so self-serious that nothing is fun and Superman is just a Batman clone in terms of personality. Have over the top stuff happen, but treat with it pathos, unless you have a comedy issue in between the bigger story arcs. You also have cosmic stories where he fights Brainiac or Mongul, but have some smaller stories where Superman deals with real issues, heck they did that back in the 1940s, I think Superman should fight for the little people, not just be a maintainer of the status quo.

One of the bigger complaints about the new Star Trek movies (2009-2016) is that they're not really Star Trek movies, they are Star Wars movies with a Star Trek veneer. Some people complain that the new Superman movies aren't really Superman movies, they are Batman movies with a Superman veneer. I don't feel that way at all, but I don't think that Superman should try to imitate Batman just to become popular again. They are completely different franchises and each should be treated with its own creativity and artistic structure.

[Jackalope89]

My Aquaman comparison went in a different than I wanted so this thread will be more direct.

Superman is not as popular as he used to be. There's no question about that. There was a time when you could ask any child who their favorite superhero was and Superman was guaranteed to be in the top 3. Today, things are different.

How did Superman's popularity diminish and what can be done to reinvigorate the character?

My solution is to go back to what worked best, the original formula by Siegel & Shuster combined with the imagination of the Silver Age, but I want to know what you'll think.

Comics really are niche.

And many find Superman boring, probably with preconceived notions of how he never changes. A lot of people were receptive to Man of Steel (not myself, personally) because it was a change-up from the usual.

Another thing that got people's attention, was Supes being a father himself to a kid with his own burgeoning powers and trying to be a good father, husband, and saving the world at the same time. It was actual character progression for the first time since, well, he got married.

Simply rewinding things "back to how they were" is a temporary fix at best.

[Sacred Knight]

Thing is, progressing or regressing to date hasn't made any difference at all. "Back to roots" ideas, which in general result in some regressive movements, don't do anything significant. But neither does progression. Superman being a dad got temporary attention, but nothing that bumped interest in him any significant amount for any significant amount of time. Same for the marriage way back when (though overall Superman was in a better place in general back then, the big fall wouldn't take place till some years later). Even the Death gaining the attention it did was the result of a perfect storm of events that pretty much amounted to sheer luck.

[The Overlord]

One of the bigger complaints about the new Star Trek movies (2009-2016) is that they're not really Star Trek movies, they are Star Wars movies with a Star Trek veneer. Some people complain that the new Superman movies aren't really Superman movies, they are Batman movies with a Superman veneer. I don't feel that way at all, but I don't think that Superman should try to imitate Batman just to become popular again. They are completely different franchises and each should be treated with its own creativity and artistic structure.

I think Star Trek Beyond was a Star Trek movie, but the fact is even Star Trek Nemesis, which was before the reboot, was a bad Wrath of Khan clone. Beyond was at least its own movie, while the 3 previous ones, borrow from Wrath of Khan, Star Trek 09 only borrows a little from Wrath of Khan, but Nemesis and Into Darkness comes off as copies of Wrath of Khan.

The Superman movies have suffered from nerd nostalgia, Superman Returns was more concerned with being a love letter to Richard Doner then an interesting film in its own right, we only seem to get Luthor and Zod as villains in these movies because they are the big villains in the original film series and Lex is always a campy goofball villain in these movies, because that was what Hackman Lex was.

Even Synder seemed more concerned with doing the greatest version of story threads from comics like the Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman in Batman v Superman, rather then making a cohesive orginal movie.

So yeah, I have no time for nerd nostalgia and if that is the reason people can come up with to keep the love trinagle, I do not agree with it.

[superduperman]

Thing is, progressing or regressing to date hasn't made any difference at all. "Back to roots" ideas, which in general result in some regressive movements, don't do anything significant. But neither does progression. Superman being a dad got temporary attention, but nothing that bumped interest in him any significant amount for any significant amount of time. Same for the marriage way back when (though overall Superman was in a better place in general back then, the big fall wouldn't take place till some years later). Even the Death gaining the attention it did was the result of a perfect storm of events that pretty much amounted to sheer luck.

This is why I think if he's going to be revived, it has to be outside media that does it. I don't think comics alone can save him. A good movie or even a decent TV show is what's necessary here. A Superman show where he has a kid would definitely get some media attention. The question is, for how long? Comics as a medium is dying. If Superman is to live on, it has be in other things. One good Superman video game might be enough to revive him. But that doesn't look like it's on the horizon anytime soon.

[The Overlord]

This is why I think if he's going to be revived, it has to be outside media that does it. I don't think comics alone can save him. A good movie or even a decent TV show is what's necessary here. A Superman show where he has a kid would definitely get some media attention. The question is, for how long? Comics as a medium is dying. If Superman is to live on, it has be in other things. One good Superman video game might be enough to revive him. But that doesn't look like it's on the horizon anytime soon.

I would agree, I think comics as a medium are dying as well, traditional print is dying frankly, maybe comics can be revived in digital form, but frankly I can see why for a while, kids preferred Manga to comics, because manga does not have the same continuity issues comics have, though nowadays comic book characters are viable in other media, where those continuity issues do not exist.

The problem is how to make a Superman game that is true the character, but also fun to play for gamers who are not big Superman fans. I am sorry, but gamers hate escort missions, so that idea of making a game where the city is Superman's health bar, like in Superman Returns, is going to annoy gamers. Also, a game is only challenging if the player can lose at any time, so you have to put Superman into a position where he can die or lose, to make the game challenging. Its a tricky balance to strike.

[HeroVladimir93]

This is why I think if he's going to be revived, it has to be outside media that does it. I don't think comics alone can save him. A good movie or even a decent TV show is what's necessary here. A Superman show where he has a kid would definitely get some media attention. The question is, for how long? Comics as a medium is dying. If Superman is to live on, it has be in other things. One good Superman video game might be enough to revive him. But that doesn't look like it's on the horizon anytime soon.

As much as like the Superman comics, as the least the comics from the current era, I have to agree with this. Movies and TV shows seem to have a greater level of awareness among general audiences and it would be nice to see a Superman movie/TV show that does something no other adaptation has done: advance the storyline. Maybe we could see Superman become a father, move his Fortress of Solitude into outer space or working towards re-establishing Krypton's culture, anything that gets viewers to challenge their own preconceptions about Superman and the world they live in.

I love Henry Cavill and I hope he can play Superman again. I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again. Letting Henry go would be the biggest insult to Superman since the Truth saga. Warner and DC have to listen to their fans and develop a long-term plan on how to return Superman to the mainstream media.

I would agree, I think comics as a medium are dying as well, traditional print is dying frankly, maybe comics can be revived in digital form, but frankly I can see why for a while, kids preferred Manga to comics, because manga does not have the same continuity issues comics have, though nowadays comic book characters are viable in other media, where those continuity issues do not exist.

The problem is how to make a Superman game that is true the character, but also fun to play for gamers who are not big Superman fans. I am sorry, but gamers hate escort missions, so that idea of making a game where the city is Superman's health bar, like in Superman Returns, is going to annoy gamers. Also, a game is only challenging if the player can lose at any time, so you have to put Superman into a position where he can die or lose, to make the game challenging. Its a tricky balance to strike.

This is a very sad thing to contemplate, even though it isn't entirely false. Comic books no longer have the same impact they had 50 years ago and for the most part, they are only treated as something of a testing ground for TV and movie ideas. I'm not attacking those other media, I'm only saying that comic books should achieve a greater level of awareness among general audiences. That said, we don't get to choose how history plays out.

If a Superman video game ever gets made, I think Nintendo should be responsible for it. Think about it, no video game developers outside Nintendo seem all that interested in making video games starring protagonists that care about doing the right thing just for the sake of doing the right thing. A new video game worked for Batman and Spider-Man, it can work for Superman. Video game developers just have to be smart about it. They can't just throw everything they have on the wall and see what sticks. That's just a bad business strategy.