Justice League #17 Discussion/Spoilers

[K. Jones]

As I understand it ... and at this point I think I'll set aside picking on Snyder for MORE chosen one tropes ... this is J'onn coming to terms with the fact that "Cosmic Forces" are at play in his timeline and backstory and trying to point out to Lex that those same cosmic forces are mucking about with his as well - the awareness of some shared historical "forgotten moment" coming to them only now, even as the Perpetua Crisis looms not even meant to be ironic or a retcon to make a story melodramatic, but part of the story structure itself.

Young J'onn was not just abducted from Mars, he was abducted from TIME as well. He's time-displaced thousands of years as he's poked and prodded by the Legionnaires Club. It's another cosmic manifestation of the same "there's a conspiracy behind everything" beat that Scott Snyder began with, with the Court of Owls ... that became various Metals ... that became Metal ... that became Element X & Source stuff ... and is now going full-tilt Multiversal. (Actually once you factor in the Barbatos of it all, and the time travel that had happened during Final Crisis ... the Court of Owls almost make MORE sense as a ... well, a Retcon Conspiracy. A Retconspiracy. Which is unoriginal, sure, that's what Doctor Hurt turned out to be all along, too. But the notion that Cosmic Forces are actually subjecting various players in the DCU to Retconspiracies to line them up for Cosmic Crisis Destinies is not exactly hard to fathom in a universe made of narratives and shared-universe storytelling.

But you see this with Time-Travel storytelling all the time. Doctor Who essentially makes it into a yearly beat - some Time-Conspiracy ghosting the Doctor until the last episode of the season when we find out that it was HIM all along when he visited some place. Comics just have the ... magician's-trick distraction of being able to throw like 200 characters you care about at you so you don't necessarily see the play coming.

Perpetua's ... what, Nix Uotan's grandmother, then, right? Of a sort? Or great-grandmother, if the story-infection meant that Zillo Valla was Nix's "mother" in some way? Monitor-Kind ancestry is probably a horrible rabbit hole to go down.

I guess to end I'll say that Lex is still just Lex. Getting caught in the Retconspiracy cosmic tide for the whims of an event-level storyline don't change you in the long run. It happens to Superman like every other week!

[Buried Alien]

Next, we're going to get Tempus, the Anti-Monitor's roommate at Faber College.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[jwatson]

Forever Evil/Rebirth brought back his Smallville status quo, so I don't think he was born rich.

Technically he could have been born rich. The story made it clear that the father had money but the blackhawks not only wiped lionel's mind but took everything from him leaving him the drunk Lionel rew to know.

[Batman Begins 2005]

Betting it will all be forgotten within a year and never acknowledged, not even by Snyder. This is just a redux of Snyder's lousy take on Freeze.

Man, I hated that new origin issue. Worst thing Snyder's ever done.

[gorosaurus]

Are we supposed to know who the Legionnaires Club is? Thanks.

[Flash Gordon]

Next, we're going to get Tempus, the Anti-Monitor's roommate at Faber College.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That's the next Crisis!

[K. Jones]

Man, I hated that new origin issue. Worst thing Snyder's ever done.

I recently re-read it. The "everything must be more nasty" spin was weak and soiled it permanently. Mister Freeze's origin is dark enough, but more importantly is all the darker through the tragedy, not the horror. Plus "all things don't need to involve WayneTech / mad at Bruce". And plus, "HEART OF ICE" is "DARK KNIGHT RETURNS" levels of iconic at this point. Everyone always wants to call back to DKR ... everyone should do the same for HOI.

But the present-day stuff was actually fine - Batman teams with Dick and Damian, and some of Jason Fabok's earliest work in the bat-books before graduating to Detective then JLA then Three Jokers. The art is gorgeous and the color pallet was really, really nice - reminiscent of (not as good, but reminiscent) J.H. Williams'/Seth Fisher's limited blue color pallet in BATMAN: SNOW.

[K. Jones]

That's the next Crisis!

Crisis of "DUDE DID YOU EAT MY LAST SLICE OF COSMIC BLEED PIZZA?"

Tempus Fuginaut did say that his order consider themselves the heirs apparent to the Monitors, yeah? It'd be nice to see them interact with Nix ... with Mandrakk ... with Over-Monitor ... or with Anti-Monitor. Or World Forger. Or Perpetua.

I'm a little hazy on the recall because it was so stuffed with silly cosmic things ... what was Barbatos' fate at the end of Metal?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I am a little weary of the 'everything is connected' narrative, but I appreciate how Snyder was able to reconcile the great Lionel Luthor character from the Smallville TV show with the abusive drunk loser that Johns used for Superman Secret Origin. I also like how it allows Lex to start off as a sympathetic kid, which is something that Secret Origin did away with. Lex isn't particularly compelling to me if he's always been a rotten egg.

[Devaishwarya]

Personally, I'm really enjoying this Justice League run so far. I like that things are connected. I like that it's not an easy read. I like that it's a more complex and layered story-line. I like that it reminds me of Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run minus the repetitive verbiage.
I'm not much of a fan of Lex Luthor and his arrogance so I was quite intrigued at the end of this issue with the seeds of doubt having been planted in his mind.

[Jody Garland]

Are we supposed to know who the Legionnaires Club is? Thanks.

While I've not read the issue yet, the Legionnaires Club is presumably a American Legion club or a VFW Hall. The term itself isn't rooted in DC history, though i'm sure we'll get an explanation of the particulars.

[Stanlos]

Personally, I'm really enjoying this Justice League run so far. I like that things are connected. I like that it's not an easy read. I like that it's a more complex and layered story-line. I like that it reminds me of Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run minus the repetitive verbiage.
I'm not much of a fan of Lex Luthor and his arrogance so I was quite intrigued at the end of this issue with the seeds of doubt having been planted in his mind.

I think my head will just explode when I read these as I was completely tiltedcwhen I read the BS way Snyder treated Vandal Savage, perhaps the most epic non cosmic foe the League has. He was totally shat on. They need to get off Luthor's **** like seriously

[Devaishwarya]

I agree with you. Snyder shytting on Vandal Savage (whom I prefer a million times over Lex) just to prop up Luthor was a wtf-egregious. Which is why I'm hoping and praying Luthor is eventually brought down lower than low...just because he deserves it.

[K. Jones]

I agree with you. Snyder shytting on Vandal Savage (whom I prefer a million times over Lex) just to prop up Luthor was a wtf-egregious. Which is why I'm hoping and praying Luthor is eventually brought down lower than low...just because he deserves it.

The way Vandal was set up in Metal though, plus ... you know, his nature as a character ... makes me figure the door is still wide open on him having more of a role later down the line. There's all the stuff with the immortal characters, there's still the "Batman In Time" elements behind it. Bringing Lex in like this with such a spotlight - in addition to rocking both the SuperFriends and Justice League Unlimited tone and giving us the "Classic Legion of Doom" line-up, definitely feels like a sort of "OUT WITH THE OLD IN WITH THE NEW" villain coup, with Vandal being 100% representative of "the old".

But I mean the Legion of Doom is ... phew ... Lex put together this pretty killer group. And it's certainly attempting to be reflective of Geoff Johns' spin - Forever Evil kind of gave us our first actual official LOD team-up. And you can actually buy into a lot of those relationships/alliances. Guys like Lex, Sinestro and Black Adam can definitely roll together and not be on the backstabbing/constant betrayal spectrum. (Further evidenced by Cullen Bunn's utterly great Sinestro/Adam team-up). Black Manta went mad with revenge and is out at the moment ... Brainiac is in, which is always dangerous territory for Lex to be in. Joker ... was a bad idea in the first place. See also ... Injustice Gang, and every other incarnation of Lex's villain team-ups.

[Devaishwarya]

I hear you K. Jones. And you are spot on.
As much as I don't care for Lex, I am definitely enjoying this incarnation of the LoD. Which is why, barring a few (personal) nits, I've been enjoying this JL run very much. (I'm certainly not one of those readers whose experience is wholly tarnished by a 'moment...or two...of dissatisfaction' or just one character's seemingly PIS and calling down hellfire and brimstone on the writers' heads). As I said in my initial post...I do like and appreciate Snyder's long-form/multilayered/interconnected storytelling. I remain engaged and intrigued to see where he's going with it all.
I hope you are right about Vandal's eventual return and role. If that happens, I can forgive Snyder his little "wtf" moments.