Female Furies #1 Discussion

[Godlike13]

Anyone else pick this up. This was quite good. Darkseid being all Harvey Weinstein was pretty dark but also kind of brilliant. Damn. Also I dug the art.

[Rakzo]

Repeating myself:

There's "Heavyhanded" and there's "Beating you to death with a single idea".

Where do you think this story falls?

Seriously, this issue just revolves around the idea that every man, every man in Apokolips is a sexist douche which makes them less of a character and instead just cardboards to support this direction. Not even Darkseid is safe since he's portrayed as a sexual harasser for God knows why. This would have worked much better if a few of them would have shown some of these traits but portraying all of them like this makes them look like walking caricatures and therefore the story can't be taken seriously (if there's a story to begin with because this is the whole "plot").

If there's something to appreciate is Melo's art, she shows how flexible she can be at depicting Kirby's style and storytelling. Great stuff.

Aside from that, yeah, not worth checking out from any standpoint.

[Godlike13]

Um, It’s Apokolips. It’s not a home for good people. And of course Darksied isn’t safe. Why would he be. He’s basically the devil. Of course Darkseid would assert his power over women, he asserts his power over everyone. That’s what drives him. I have no problem believing that every man in power on Apokolips is a sexist douche. Honestly its one of those things that when you think about it, of course they would be. It’s Apokolips.

[Nyssane]

What I said in the Female Furies thread:

I liked it, but I didn't love it. It was a bit heavy-handed in its approach to Apokolips's sexism. Halfway through the story, I was like "ok, we get it... Darkseid's Elite is sexist af." But they kept going anyway.

One thing I loved was the "pageant" that Darkseid forced the Furies to put on, and the Furies' reactions to it. That kind of comedic take on sexism is far more appealing to me than the more realistic sexual harassment that Aurelie undertakes from... that dude who I've never seen before (as well as Darkseid exerting his power and sexually assaulting Goodness... I wonder how Darkseid fans will feel about that). Speaking of her, Aurelie is far more interesting than her bland ass design had made me think she'd be. I'm looking forward to more of her.

I just wish the other Furies had more time to shine. We got a LOT of Granny, and quite a bit of Aurelie and to an extent Big Barda, but barely anything of Lashina, Stompa, Bernadeth, and Mad Harriet. I'm hoping future issues rectify that.

So anyway, hope we get more fun and more classic Furies than just more in-your-face depictions of sexual harassment/assault.

Seriously, this issue just revolves around the idea that every man, every man in Apokolips is a sexist douche which makes them less of a character and instead just cardboards to support this direction. Not even Darkseid is safe since he's portrayed as a sexual harasser for God knows why. This would have worked much better if a few of them would have shown some of these traits but portraying all of them like this makes them look like walking caricatures and therefore the story can't be taken seriously (if there's a story to begin with because this is the whole "plot").

I think the last thing Apokolips needs is #NotAllMen.

Glorious Godfrey is 100% a rapist and has been depicted as such in previous comics.

Darkseid also has forced himself on women in the past.

I didn't even recognize Willik, the one who gropes Aurelie. But google results indicate he made one appearance in Mister Miracle #9, so he doesn't have much of any comic history to go by.

Desaad and Steppenwolf are Darkseid's chief bootlickers and will take any opportunity to humiliate contenders for Darkseid's affection (hence why they mock Granny Goodness).

And ultimately, they're all really, really bad people. I agree that the display of sexual harassment and assault was far too straight-forward for my tastes (as I pointed out in my earlier thoughts), but depicting them as sexist among their other negative traits isn't a stretch by any means.

[Rakzo]

I think the last thing Apokolips needs is #NotAllMen.

Not really what I'm saying.

Those characters would have worked well as sexual harassers and even Darkseid could have worked well as someone who wants to force his will over others (not the way that was shown here since it was overly-mundane). The thing is that portraying all of them like this makes the whole theme of the story incredibly repetitive, forced and lacking actual substance and complexity from the characters.

[Godlike13]

You seem to be confused about the kinds of people the rise to power in Apokolips. All of them in power are inhuman and take part in inhuman acts. It’s a horrible place, filled with horrible beings, that do horrible things.

[Flash Gordon]

This was rad. Like, really rad.

A lot to unpack here.

[K. Jones]

I liked this rather a lot.

I mean it's heavy-handed as hell. The Jack Kirby source material is heavy-handed too. This is perhaps "more heavy-handed" or at least, more on-the-nose with the prescient topics of the day all rolled into it. But I think it's important at least to note that the story itself has a point-of-view character, who is effectively the narrator, and that's Granny Goodness. So we're seeing sort of "her take" on it, and in her eyes, the Apokolips boy's club of sycophants and Darkseid himself are just utterly the worst. It's all patriarchy, sexism, harassment, assault. And yet, caught in that system she still worships Darkseid - it's good that it's complex or at least binary on whether or not she worships Darkseid because he's you know ... the Ultimate Evil ... or because he does occasionally throw her a bone, which could indicate that she is like one of the tiny chinks in his stony armor of evil.

Yes. Everyone on Apokolips is a bad person. Except maybe Barda. Barda just by virtue of being Barda is ironically "just maybe not the best person". The Furies, extending from that, are perhaps "the least evil people on Apokolips". But they're nasty customers.

So then knowing that everyone on Apokolips has a twisted viewpoint, can we actually trust Granny's fanatical tactics and concerns about the Apokoliptian patriarchy? Or is her viewpoint meant to be just as twisted, fallible and askew as every other thing on Apokolips - is she a reliable narrator here? Do you fault the God of All Headgames for playing headgames? Or do you worship him for having pulled a fast one on you?

You can verily make an argument for the top court of Apokolips being a boy's club. Steppenwolf like, literally represents "the old guard" way of thinking. Kalibak is the pure expression of like, testosterone-addled rage. Desaad is every embittered beta male control freak. Godfrey is a televangelist. It goes on an on. The only one with any nuance is probably ... Kanto? Who we haven't seen yet. But who assuredly cares more about the "finer 'things' in life" than the lives of people.

There's a weird accounting between Granny's bitterness at being handed "woman's work" running the orphanage, with the pride of what she has done with that work ... contrasted with the accounts we have historically from Scott Free or Barda of what it was actually like, which is effing brutal and nightmarish. Can Granny blame the system itself? When she was a fundamental figure in the revolution and overthrow that created that system? Is she like that demented parent-child relationship that constantly features that kind of blame-shifting and guilt and shame and bipolar dependency freakouts? Can any relationship ever be healthy on Apokolips?

Of course not.

But I do think Granny Goodness is a character interesting enough for her POV to be explored, and it's perhaps heavily appropriate (if not pretty ironic) that her POV is that of oppressed/oppressor based on whatever status / not high enough in the hierarchy. I mean ... not to beat the drum too much ... but yeah ... the whole nature of Apokolips is Oppression. Everyone not named Darkseid is probably oppressed. Heck even Darkseid might be oppressed. But then that begs the question, is she oppressed in exactly the way her POV paints the narrative?

And more than that, I suppose, the thing we'll be reading about - can any good escape from the black hole of oppression purely almost on accident? Like can the Furies be an odd success story because of some accidental fluke of Granny's generation and backstory? I imagine we can already debate because of Big Barda the "yes" of that. Because of Granny's awareness of certain patterns of horrible injustice, even though she's part of the system and can't escape, change, or transcend that system ... some of her proteges might be able to. (But would she be proud of them for escaping, or just resent them even more?)

Great Kirby art.

[Br_Havoc]

It certainly was not the book I was expecting it to be. I thought it would be a little more darker and it's depictions of what the women went through to become the furies. Yet it decides to go in a different direction where it's almost cartoonish with how over the top the sexism is. I understand it's supposed to be a parody of people like Harvey Weinstein and the me-too movement but with it being so over-the-top it loses its power for me personally just makes me not want to read anymore.

I think this book could have been something special but since every male character is depicted as this unison sexist that you would almost see in a sketch comedy show. It loses what it's attempting to do. They could have went in a Direction with three dimensional male characters that showed you this type of mindset is prevalent in all different types of men with power.

[Flash Gordon]

It certainly was not the book I was expecting it to be. I thought it would be a little more darker and it's depictions of what the women went through to become the furies. Yet it decides to go in a different direction where it's almost cartoonish with how over the top the sexism is. I understand it's supposed to be a parody of people like Harvey Weinstein and the me-too movement but with it being so over-the-top it loses its power for me personally just makes me not want to read anymore.

I think this book could have been something special but since every male character is depicted as this unison sexist that you would almost see in a sketch comedy show. It loses what it's attempting to do. They could have went in a Direction with three dimensional male characters that showed you this type of mindset is prevalent in all different types of men with power.

This book takes place on Apokolips...throne world of the god of supreme and total order. The god of oppression. Yeah, he's a sexist.

Desaad is a horrific sadist.

Godfrey and Steppenwolf, rampant rapists.

[Nyssane]

It's so odd to me that the takeaway for so many readers of this issue is that the depictions of the MALE characters is overly sexist, when the series has and should be about the FEMALE Furies.

[Flash Gordon]

It's so odd to me that the takeaway for so many readers of this issue is that the depictions of the MALE characters is overly sexist, when the series has and should be about the FEMALE Furies.

Yeah totally. Who would have guessed so many readers would want to stick up for freaking Desaad LOL.

I want to read about Barda and the Furies and their experiences.

[K. Jones]

It's so odd to me that the takeaway for so many readers of this issue is that the depictions of the MALE characters is overly sexist, when the series has and should be about the FEMALE Furies.

I was thinking of that earlier, actually.

There's a tendency in readership, I suppose particularly, though not entirely, in male readers, of these sorts of mythological stories to grant a level of Romance to villainous characters, right? And with Apokolips we actually have over-the-top but under-developed, really cool characters in this evil high command. And they're not a court of politically or greed-motivated humans like in a ... I dunno, spitballing, Game of Thrones, or even a Cobra Command, where some have some honor and they all have their reasons. They've been depicted fairly archetypically and always firmly in the realm of villainous intent. But we've also I guess always wanted to see a bit more behind the curtains over the years and see them given some nuance.

And here it is. And it's maybe likely that this depiction of these Apokoliptian dudes then will ruffle some feathers and wind up problematic. I mean look at the ruffled feathers regarding Steppenwolf in the DCEU films. Or just Darkseid or Steppenwolf in the New 52, for that matter. We're also perhaps ... surprised ... since it's been a while since anyone has really depicted the lords of Apokolips with any kind of characterization other than "check out the badass Jim Lee art" or Tom King's ... well, in Tom King's book they were in character but you know ... had Tom King Dialogue.

So flipping that to talk about the actual lead characters here ...

I thought the Furies were written well and in character. This was clearly Granny's issue so the rest of them didn't get as much development. Auralie drew the short straw of perhaps the only Classic Fury you could describe as beautiful and therefore gets to be the one to deal with rapey douchebags in the command structure, but I don't have any problem with how she, frustrated by insulting behavior from the Apokoliptian boy's club, you know, just killed that dude. Barda (Barda, the brutally honest ... that won't come up, I'm sure) too seemed on point. The rest mostly had a few lines to kind of illustrate which "team member" they are - Bernadeth is the poison lady and Desaad's sister. Stompa is quiet and thicc. Harriet is batshit. Lashina is kinky and somewhat BDSM. Not enough to go by yet but within classic depictions of them so far.

So basically there wasn't anything problematic about their dialogue, motivations, interactions or depictions. The crap treatment they endured is clearly part of the plot but not a part of the plot they're going to stand for for very long, as evidenced by you know, murdering a sexist, probably rapist pig.

[Godlike13]

It made me feel sympathy for Granny frigging Goodness. Yes it was heavy handed, but it also serves to create sympathy for a group of evil characters that are its leads.

[Flash Gordon]

Kirby's own stuff is "heavy handed" in the big, wide screen, archetypal way of the 4th World. This feels akin. Moreso than King's MM tbh.

I felt like I was reading BIG BARDA and not just Big Barda being used in a story, if that makes sense.