Female Furies #1 Discussion

[jetengine]

I think the issue is less "People are defending desaad" and more "The way this was presented was a tad cartoonish and thus broke my suspension of disbelief or the serious message its trying to get across" kind of like the Captain America :Red White and Black which has a nasty message (The US Government tested the Super Soldier Serum on African Americsns which horribly mutated a good chunk of them) but has awful dialogue and legitimately cartoon esque art.

[Triniking1234]

It wasn't the book I was expecting so it's dropped. I honestly couldn't make it past Darkseid having his way with Goodness so I stopped. Honestly since I grew up knowing that the people on Apokolips were a-holes but Darkseid going around grabbing women by the you-know-what? Seriously? That kinda goes against my belief that he's not interested in that crap and only reproduced for convenience. Then I see there are panels where he makes them bake pies and play dress-up? Are we supposed to take this seriously?

Good grief. I'll stick to JL Odyssey. Forget this.

[Nite-Wing]

If Darkseid has his "urges" he can pretty much have his way with any of the female furies. You don't need to make him the bad boss of apokolips all the people there are terrible and raised in a culture of slavery and subjugation through force.
In fact if Darkseid the ultimate evil of the DCU isn't above that base desire than you might as well write every villain like that in the future.

In any case I wonder how they can turn desaad around from this

[Flash Gordon]

I think the issue is less "People are defending desaad" and more "The way this was presented was a tad cartoonish and thus broke my suspension of disbelief or the serious message its trying to get across" kind of like the Captain America :Red White and Black which has a nasty message (The US Government tested the Super Soldier Serum on African Americsns which horribly mutated a good chunk of them) but has awful dialogue and legitimately cartoon esque art.

Again, it feels totally akin to the original Fourth World stuff tonally.

[Korath]

My one true complain is that all the guys in Darkseid's inner circle were all depicted the same. I would have found it better to have a range of toxic behaviour in them. Like, Steppenwolf doesn't see the Furies as weak, but doesn't see them at all, focusing on how they could produce strong soldiers with the appropriate mate; or Desaad could be that cruel bastard who ingrains himself in a woman's life and both belittle her at every turn but prétends (and make her believe) that he is indispensable in her life, that sort of things.

Here, they were all the same, and I found it diminished the issues in the story. I'm also not sure that the Furies are the best characters for Female Empowerment.

[Flash Gordon]

It wasn't the book I was expecting so it's dropped. I honestly couldn't make it past Darkseid having his way with Goodness so I stopped. Honestly since I grew up knowing that the people on Apokolips were a-holes but Darkseid going around grabbing women by the you-know-what? Seriously? That kinda goes against my belief that he's not interested in that crap and only reproduced for convenience. Then I see there are panels where he makes them bake pies and play dress-up? Are we supposed to take this seriously?

Good grief. I'll stick to JL Odyssey. Forget this.

Darkseid has never been shown to only reproduce for convenience...

He has been shown to not really always tolerate Desaad's total sexual sadism, but very few could tolerate that kind of depravity for long. Nothing about Apokolips is nice, it's all about oppression and extreme totalitarian order.

That's why we cheer for Orion, his son, who constantly battles himself and his own DNA. Big Barda, the gladiator in the arena who realized the fight wasn't the lion but the emperor. Scott Free, who endured countless cruelty by Granny to escape and escape and escape again. Their struggles are fascinating because of the place they come from.

[Armor of God]

Yeah totally. Who would have guessed so many readers would want to stick up for freaking Desaad LOL.

I want to read about Barda and the Furies and their experiences.

Sticking up for Desaad? are you serious? you do realize that Granny is a vicious old crone who destroys children's lives? first things first why exactly are we being made to sympathize with Granny over Desaad of all people? They're both equal pieces of crap, the writer choosing to make you pity Granny and hate Desaad is already a big fail in my eyes.

Secondly the writer decided to retcon canon so that fans would sympathize with one despicable person over another. Desaad legitimately poisoned Darkseid's mother on his own under Darkseid's orders because Heggra had Desaad poison Suli, it was fitting revenge and showed Darkseid's and Desaad's true natures. The writer here just shoehorned Granny in to the story, she made up her own retcon about Granny killing Heggra and Desaad only falsely claiming credit with Darkseid favoring the latter over the former because he was a male.

[Agent Z]

My one true complain is that all the guys in Darkseid's inner circle were all depicted the same. I would have found it better to have a range of toxic behaviour in them. Like, Steppenwolf doesn't see the Furies as weak, but doesn't see them at all, focusing on how they could produce strong soldiers with the appropriate mate; or Desaad could be that cruel bastard who ingrains himself in a woman's life and both belittle her at every turn but prétends (and make her believe) that he is indispensable in her life, that sort of things.

Here, they were all the same, and I found it diminished the issues in the story. I'm also not sure that the Furies are the best characters for Female Empowerment.

I don't think it has anything to do with female empowerment. It's just acknowledging sexism.

Sticking up for Desaad? are you serious? you do realize that Granny is a vicious old crone who destroys children's lives? first things first why exactly are we being made to sympathize with Granny over Desaad of all people? They're both equal pieces of crap, the writer choosing to make you pity Granny and hate Desaad is already a big fail in my eyes.

Secondly the writer decided to retcon canon so that fans would sympathize with one despicable person over another. Desaad legitimately poisoned Darkseid's mother on his own under Darkseid's orders because Heggra had Desaad poison Suli, it was fitting revenge and showed Darkseid's and Desaad's true natures. The writer here just shoehorned Granny in to the story, she made up her own retcon about Granny killing Heggra and Desaad only falsely claiming credit with Darkseid favoring the latter over the former because he was a male.

This isn't the first time that Granny has been given a sympathetic origin. And Kirby himself had the Female Furies denounce their servitude to Darkseid to live a life of peace on Earth. So the idea that some denizens of Apokolips are sympathetic and even capable of redemption isn't some defilement of canon.

[Korath]

I don't think it has anything to do with female empowerment. It's just acknowledging sexism.

Perhaps.

But then, all kind of sexism should have been displayed from the front.

I think some are even more toxic than the ones we saw in issue 1, and a lot more disturbing.

[Rakzo]

I think the issue is less "People are defending desaad" and more "The way this was presented was a tad cartoonish and thus broke my suspension of disbelief or the serious message its trying to get across" kind of like the Captain America :Red White and Black which has a nasty message (The US Government tested the Super Soldier Serum on African Americsns which horribly mutated a good chunk of them) but has awful dialogue and legitimately cartoon esque art.

Yup.

I don't give two sh*ts about Desaad but at the same time I don't want him to be more annoying than he normally is.

[Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.]

The idea that someone is very evil doesn't mean that they would sexually harass other people because that is evil as well. That's like saying that Darkseid is also racist because “hey, he's evil”. Just because a character is a villain, that doesn't mean that they would perform every single evil act imaginable, that's very simplistic characterisation.

Also, I found disturbing the fact that an abuser of children, like Granny Goodness, is never shown in the act, but is instead shown as a victim of abuse herself, just because the story seems to follow the narrative “all abusers are male, all victims are female”, which has nothing to do with Kirby's original work.

Also what's with “you wouldn't stand a minute being a woman on Apokolips”? Since when does suffering on a hell-planet have a gender? I used to think that Scott Free was inspirational for surviving Apokolips and coming out of it a free, enlighetened person, but apparently he had it easy because he was a man.

[Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.]

And Kirby himself had the Female Furies denounce their servitude to Darkseid to live a life of peace on Earth. So the idea that some denizens of Apokolips are sympathetic and even capable of redemption isn't some defilement of canon.

No, he didn't. Only Barda clearly denounced Darkseid and Granny in Kirby's work, and then 4 of them (Lashina, Stompa, Mad Harriet and Desaad's sister) stuck around her for some time. During that time they were depicted as belligerent and warlike, with only Barda's leadership keeping them in check. In his final Fourth World work, the Hunger Dogs, they are depicted back on Apokolips.

[Br_Havoc]

It's so odd to me that the takeaway for so many readers of this issue is that the depictions of the MALE characters is overly sexist, when the series has and should be about the FEMALE Furies.

I have no problem showing the sexism of the characters but it's just how cartoonish it is. It's taking serious discussion and doing this over-the-top parity that comes across as a satire but not a good one. Again you could have done this in a more serious light not having strong warrior women parade for a fashion show with evil sadistic Godly tyrants acting like horny stupid frat boys. Then there's the ethical debate of making granny goodness a sympathetic figure a known torture of children who's horrors were describe in detail in Mister Miracle and seeing the trama and aftermath.

On a side note that is a problem with this particular depiction is it does take away from the title characters do to the absurdity of how everyone else is acting around them.

[Agent Z]

No, he didn't. Only Barda clearly denounced Darkseid and Granny in Kirby's work, and then 4 of them (Lashina, Stompa, Mad Harriet and Desaad's sister) stuck around her for some time. During that time they were depicted as belligerent and warlike, with only Barda's leadership keeping them in check. In his final Fourth World work, the Hunger Dogs, they are depicted back on Apokolips.

IIRC, the circumstances under which they returned to Apokolips were unknown. They were just shown back there despite being called to New Genesis for war against Apokolips.

Either way, my point is sympathetic Apokolipsians is not a new idea to the Fourth World. It's been acknowledged before that the denizens of Apokolips are victims of Darkseid's cruelty as well.

[Nyssane]

Also what's with “you wouldn't stand a minute being a woman on Apokolips”? Since when does suffering on a hell-planet have a gender? I used to think that Scott Free was inspirational for surviving Apokolips and coming out of it a free, enlighetened person, but apparently he had it easy because he was a man.

Wow, the hyperbole here is astounding.

There's no way you think men and women suffer the same treatment even on our own planet (let alone the hellish Apokolips). Women are much more likely to suffer sexual assault and degradation than men which is why that line exists.

I have no problem showing the sexism of the characters but it's just how cartoonish it is. It's taking serious discussion and doing this over-the-top parity that comes across as a satire but not a good one. Again you could have done this in a more serious light not having strong warrior women parade for a fashion show with evil sadistic Godly tyrants acting like horny stupid frat boys. Then there's the ethical debate of making granny goodness a sympathetic figure a known torture of children who's horrors were describe in detail in Mister Miracle and seeing the trama and aftermath.

On a side note that is a problem with this particular depiction is it does take away from the title characters do to the absurdity of how everyone else is acting around them.

The writer set out to write the book in a way that Jack Kirby would've. She wanted to emulate him, and that over-the-top cartoonish dialogue (along with the Kirby-esque art) shows all that. It seems like that went over a lot of readers' heads, but the writer has stated that in several interviews.