Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 64
  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In Tower of Babel, a villain steals Batman¬’s secret contingencies against superheroes leading to the heroes getting caught off guard because they were unaware these contingencies even existed.
    In Infinite Crisis, Brother Eye, an computer spy network created by Batman goes rogue and kills numerous people and the League is blindsided by this because they didn¬’t even know Bruce had this thing running.
    I¬’d say that Bruce¬’s attempts to single-handedly police the entire superhero community with no oversight or input from anyone else have twice screwed everyone else over is very relevant to this discussion. Again, the issue isn¬’t about contingencies against the League but how Bruce goes about it and that he thinks he alone should be the one keeping the League in check.



    Bruce¬’s plans weren¬’t designed to fight evil clones of the Justice League, they were designed to fight the League themselves.


    The difference is the Amazons don¬’t hide the fact that they have an army in the first place.


    Could you list those instances? Because right now I can think of way more instances where Bruce¬’s contingencies ended up getting more people killed than a possessed team mate.
    Superman had a robot double that killed Donna Troy, but nobody hates on Clark. Not to mention when Clark had his brain swapped out but some nut who tried to beat Donna to death back in the Byrne run.

    Amazons Attack? Circe mind-twists the resurrected Hippolyta into slaughtering her way through Washington? Blackest Night is rife with possessed heroes causing carnage.

    Thats without me thinking hard or using Google...

    And let's not forget the REASON Bats created Brother Eye was Zatanna and other Leaguers doing secret stuff.
    Last edited by brettc1; 02-12-2019 at 01:46 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  2. #32
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Superman had a robot double that killed Donna Troy, but nobody hates on Clark. Not to mention when Clark had his brain swapped out but some nut who tried to beat Donna to death back in the Byrne run.

    Amazons Attack? Circe mind-twists the resurrected Hippolyta into slaughtering her way through Washington? Blackest Night is rife with possessed heroes causing carnage.

    Thats without me thinking hard or using Google...

    And let's not forget the REASON Bats created Brother Eye was Zatanna and other Leaguers doing secret stuff.
    The Superman robot wasn't a possessed team mate. And even then Clark still got criticized over it by Starfire. And the guy who swapped brains with Clark didn't kill anyone IIRC.

    Hippolyta is also not a member of the Justice League.

    The only one of these that fits the argument you're making is Blackest Night and where were Bruce's contingencies then?

    In fact, it's quite telling that Bruce spends more time preparing for the possibility that the League ''might'' go evil than than he does finding ways to keep villains he knows are dangerous from breaking out of Arkham and killing people. Where are the contingencies against the likes of Joker, Bane, Ivy, Two-Face and the Al Ghuls?

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The Superman robot wasn't a possessed team mate. And even then Clark still got criticized over it by Starfire. And the guy who swapped brains with Clark didn't kill anyone IIRC.

    Hippolyta is also not a member of the Justice League.

    The only one of these that fits the argument you're making is Blackest Night and where were Bruce's contingencies then?

    In fact, it's quite telling that Bruce spends more time preparing for the possibility that the League ''might'' go evil than than he does finding ways to keep villains he knows are dangerous from breaking out of Arkham and killing people. Where are the contingencies against the likes of Joker, Bane, Ivy, Two-Face and the Al Ghuls?
    So may hairs being split here.

    If you count up the times over the decades the League was in danger of being killed by a possessed team mate and in danger of being killed by Batman's contingency plans, the danger posed by possession if much more likely.

    The reason Brother Eye went back was that it was hacked by Max Lord, who also hacked Superman's brain. If the League had not shown they were untrustworthy, Brother Eye would not have existed. Essentially, Batman was right in anticipating the Leaguers would begin to act as a law unto themselves.

    Batman builds a robot that that gets hacked and kills people, and he gets hated. Superman builds a robot and leaves it lying around and it kills people, he gets criticized. There's a clear disconnect here.

    Batman's contingencies for the Joker are the same as Wonder Woman's contingencies for Cheetah. Both characters are written the same in that way, with the same long term results.

    Ironically, the personal feelings of other heroes had led to Bruce's contingency plans being mothballed by the time Blackest Night came around, just when they would have done the most good.

    Contingency plans, people. Because you just never know...

    Last edited by brettc1; 02-12-2019 at 03:08 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,180

    Default

    Finally, it is also well worth pointing out that in JLA:A League of One, Wonder Woman comes up with AND USES her own plans to neutralize the Justice League, based on their particular weaknesses and psychological pressure points. She deliberately puts members of the JLA in mortal danger just to force Superman into a moral crisis and get him out of the way.

    Funnily enough, nobody in the JLA votes for her to get thrown out afterwards.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  5. #35
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    So may hairs being split here.

    If you count up the times over the decades the League was in danger of being killed by a possessed team mate and in danger of being killed by Batman's contingency plans, the danger posed by possession if much more likely.
    People have been in danger of being killed by a possessed team mate. However, far more people have been killed by Bruce’s contingency plans.

    The reason Brother Eye went back was that it was hacked by Max Lord, who also hacked Superman's brain. If the League had not shown they were untrustworthy, Brother Eye would not have existed. Essentially, Batman was right in anticipating the Leaguers would begin to act as a law unto themselves.
    If Bruce had reason to believe the League was untrustworthy, why not blow the whistle on them? Alert every Bat member, government agency and superhero who wasn’t associated with the League that they were starting to cross the line. It isn’t like it would be hard to find allies to combat a corrupt Justice League. Why did he feel it was best to go at this alone? Especially given how badly it turned out the last time?
    Again, the issue isn’t the idea of anti-League contingencies but that feels that he can operate without accountability and oversight and refuses to learn from his mistakes.

    Batman builds a robot that that gets hacked and kills people, and he gets hated. Superman builds a robot and leaves it lying around and it kills people, he gets criticized. There's a clear disconnect here.
    Starfire physically attacked Superman over the mess with the robot. Bruce got off lucky by comparison. He quit the League on his own accord and Brother Eye was forgotten about almost immediately after Infinite Crisis.

    Batman's contingencies for the Joker are the same as Wonder Woman's contingencies for Cheetah. Both characters are written the same in that way, with the same long term results.
    I’m calling B.S on this. You can’t make a big deal about how Batman is about making plans to neutralize threats and then ignore it when he doesn’t apply this methodology to actual, known threats. At best this is screwed up priorities, at worst it’s hypocrisy at its height.

    Ironically, the personal feelings of other heroes had led to Bruce's contingency plans being mothballed by the time Blackest Night came around, just when they would have done the most good.

    Contingency plans, people. Because you just never know...

    Didn’t have an issue with Ollie using a Kryptonite Arrow in that crossover. Because unlike Bruce, he did a good job of keeping it from being stolen.

  6. #36
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Finally, it is also well worth pointing out that in JLA:A League of One, Wonder Woman comes up with AND USES her own plans to neutralize the Justice League, based on their particular weaknesses and psychological pressure points. She deliberately puts members of the JLA in mortal danger just to force Superman into a moral crisis and get him out of the way.

    Funnily enough, nobody in the JLA votes for her to get thrown out afterwards.
    They weren't in mortal danger. She had Arthur restrained by a few nymphs, locked J'Onn, Wally and Kyle in space pods and subdued Bruce. And she didn't even hurt Superman. Her methods in League of One were far less likely to kill the League than Bruce's methods were even if you buy into the claim that Batman's contingencies were supposed to be non-lethal.

  7. #37
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,186

    Default

    All of these elaborate contingency plans, though, are now moot as of Batman:Endgame and the creation of the Justice Buster armor.

    Batman spent billions of dollars to create a powered suit designed to react as fast as the Flash in order to personally take down the entire JL should they go bad.

    Might be nice to use it to fight villains?

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    People have been in danger of being killed by a possessed team mate. However, far more people have been killed by Bruce’s contingency plans.


    If Bruce had reason to believe the League was untrustworthy, why not blow the whistle on them? Alert every Bat member, government agency and superhero who wasn’t associated with the League that they were starting to cross the line. It isn’t like it would be hard to find allies to combat a corrupt Justice League. Why did he feel it was best to go at this alone? Especially given how badly it turned out the last time?
    Again, the issue isn’t the idea of anti-League contingencies but that feels that he can operate without accountability and oversight and refuses to learn from his mistakes.


    Starfire physically attacked Superman over the mess with the robot. Bruce got off lucky by comparison. He quit the League on his own accord and Brother Eye was forgotten about almost immediately after Infinite Crisis.


    I’m calling B.S on this. You can’t make a big deal about how Batman is about making plans to neutralize threats and then ignore it when he doesn’t apply this methodology to actual, known threats. At best this is screwed up priorities, at worst it’s hypocrisy at its height.


    Didn’t have an issue with Ollie using a Kryptonite Arrow in that crossover. Because unlike Bruce, he did a good job of keeping it from being stolen.
    So your issue ISNT that the writers decide that Bruce has plans, it’s that the writers use them as a plot point to cause problems.

    Starfire attacked Superman? He just stood there unmoving while she starbolted him. She might as well have thrown a glass of water in his face. And nobody else did anything.

    Villains steal and the misuse things that duper heroes have all the time. Is it Supermans fault if Kryptonisn tech from his Fortress is stolen and weaponizes? Is it Wonder Woman’s fault that Genocide stole her lasso and used it to torture people?
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They weren't in mortal danger. She had Arthur restrained by a few nymphs, locked J'Onn, Wally and Kyle in space pods and subdued Bruce. And she didn't even hurt Superman. Her methods in League of One were far less likely to kill the League than Bruce's methods were even if you buy into the claim that Batman's contingencies were supposed to be non-lethal.
    No, I’ve read the story. She only lures Superman away from Earth because the space pods have limited air. That’s what she tells him, and we know she can’t lie. She forces Clark to make the choice between staying on a Earth or saving their lives.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Gurz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    480

    Default

    Batman tied Wonder Woman with her own lasso in Red Son but they didn't show how.
    Bad bad boy with a bad bad girl in a bad bad world.

    Favorite DC Charaters:
    1-Batman, 2-Nightwing, 3-Black Adam, 4-Cassandra Cain, 5-Aquaman,6-Catwoman, 7- Wesley Dodds (Sandman),8-Green Lantern, 9-Supergirl, 10-Green Arrow
    Favorite Marvel Characters:
    1-Wolverine, 2-Blade, 3-Punisher, 4-Daredevil
    Favorite Image, Top Cow Characters:
    1-Darkness, 2-Witchblade, 3-Invincible, 4-Spawn, 5-Dragon
    Favorite Valiant Characters:
    1-Bloodshot

  11. #41
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,388

    Default

    I remember in an old JMS written issue of Spider-Man Pete told MJ that he had plans to take down other heroes if he had to. He didn't specify whether or not he had them written down, but he did say most (if not all) heroes had take down plans for the others and it was something of an unspoken thing between all of them.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  12. #42
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazon Swordsman View Post
    Oh sure, bats is ALWAYS right because he’s the rational one. He’s the human one with no superpowers. He’s the one who doesn’t trust anyone. God forbid if he ever lost control. Oh no, that would never happen because he has the sheer willpower that would put the entire GL Corp to shame.
    It's a good thing Batman doesn't have any villains that can control or alter his mind. I mean, if he had to fight people like Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, or Scarecrow or somebody like that then the entire Justice League could really be in danger.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's a good thing Batman doesn't have any villains that can control or alter his mind. I mean, if he had to fight people like Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, or Scarecrow or somebody like that then the entire Justice League could really be in danger.


    The same could be said of any hero who know another's secret identity. But essentially you are arguing that it's too dangerous for the heroes to let Batman live. Even if he hadn't already created a plan, he could come up with one.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    ďThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.Ē - the 4th Doctor

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,152

    Default

    Lex has a suite that can fix Superman. So technically Batman making a suite is already done.

  15. #45
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Lex has a suite that can fix Superman. So technically Batman making a suite is already done.
    What troubled me the most is that he flat out stated that he spent billions to make a suit, not to stop crime or to save people, but solely as a means of stopping his friends and fellow heroes should they go bad. It's a ridiculously wasteful contingency; to leave this superspeed suit that is armored against Superman's blows in the closet just in case something should happen with the Justice League.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •