"I LOVE DC, but have never been able to get into....."

[Slim Shady]

I was never interested in Hawkman, but I started reading his current series and I'm really liking it. You might want to give that a try if you're up for it.

Appreciate it. I did think about giving it another try when the current title first came out but didn't. Kind of wanted to see what the verdict was, so thanks for the insight. Just might give Carter Hall/Kartar Hol another chance. See, I don't even know what to call the guy

Booster Gold, just so lame, I never saw the appeal.

"Bros before heroes!" fist bump.

Oh, since somebody mentioned Hawkman...

Yeah. Talk about convoluted. Unlike the Green Lanterns, I don't really feel like there'd even be a rewarding experience at the end of coming to understand Hawkman. Maybe if I put enough effort into understanding the GLs, I'm sure I'd see why that whole corner of the universe gets so much love, but Hawkman? Nah.

I get that about the GL world. Even though I never got into it, I can tell there's something there. Like I totally can understand why so many people love the GL stuff, even though it's never been my thing.

Seems like Hawkman is one of those characters that was kind of confusing, so they tried to fix it, made it more confusing, tried to fix it again, and in the end made it worse than what it was to start with.

[SiegePerilous02]

Verily and Forsooth! ( This! )

*fist bump*

Jay Garrick was a fictional character to Barry Allen. Not a "legacy". Barry wasn't a legacy hero until they retconned that in. 3 decades into his existence.

Yes. Wally should have taken his own name when he grew out of being a kid sidekick. Just like Nightwing, Tempest, Arsenal, and (ugh) Troia. Once he took Barry's name he ceased being his own character and became a legacy knock-off.

I have to disagree about Wally. He really came into his own as the Flash and has one of the better arcs of his generation. But I wouldn't like it if they did it with everybody. Them all being on the same path is kind of boring.

And Donna's codename is indeed awful.

I get what you're saying and I know I shouldn't but even when I see a "good" portrayal of Wonder Woman all I can think of are those ******ised depictions. It's irrational but I do.

Like I said, even before those came along I've just never found Wonder Woman compelling or even interesting.

That's fair.

[Flash Gordon]

Yeah, it works great for the JSA (and I'd lump in Starman with them), and Wally as the Flash was VERY well done.
Doing it too much dilutes all the brands though. Like you say, 5 Robins is way too damn much. And I say that as someone who likes Damian.

I like Damian too. If ROBIN has to be a legacy name, only Dick and Damian should have it.

[Dred]

Jay Garrick was a fictional character to Barry Allen. Not a "legacy". Barry wasn't a legacy hero until they retconned that in. 3 decades into his existence.

Yes. Wally should have taken his own name when he grew out of being a kid sidekick. Just like Nightwing, Tempest, Arsenal, and (ugh) Troia. Once he took Barry's name he ceased being his own character and became a legacy knock-off.

They're both fictional characters to us. We can track who came after who, who was based on who, who is who's legacy. This isn't just an in universe, narrative thing, and even if it was they changed the narrative for this to be the case! These concepts and narratives are hardboiled into The Flash. We're not in this fictional universe, looking at Barry going "Wow, he named himself after that comic book!" To us, they're both comic book fictional characters and one is clearly based on the other. One clearly took his name from the other. Barry was Jay's legacy in every exact way except Jay going, "My time is over, it is your time now, Barry Allen!" in the comics, and they eventually did that anyhow! Super early into Barry's comics! It's fundamental to Barry's character that he met Jay, told him how inspired he was by him, and that Jay acknowledged and accepted Barry taking on his mantle.

If I got super speed, right now, and named myself The Flash, then a few months later traveled to another dimension and met Jay Garrick, you sure as hell bet I'd say I based who I am and what I'm doing on him. To say otherwise is disgraceful and dismissive of a great character.

When the actual content is different, yeah it depends on how you look at it. One is a revamp of a concept in a new canon, the other is a legacy character who was a supporting character before hand.

It's like saying the Starbuck of the 2000s BSG is a legacy of the original one from the 70s and not a revamp.



Barry got the name and was the only character in-universe to have the name of the Flash at the time of his creation. Wally was always in the same continuity as Barry, and he'd be taking the mantle from Barry if his story was continuing no matter what, whether Jay is part of his canon or not.



And Jay was a fictional character from his POV, so in-universe of Earth-1 he is the first real person to be the Flash. Alan meanwhile has nothing to do with Hal. Hal is a legacy of Abin-Sur, who was introduced in the same story to die.

The merger and Jay predating Barry on the same Earth are retcons post-COIE. This cannot be disputed, it is well known fact. So Barry inheriting the name of the Flash from another person who existed in his timeline is a retcon. No ifs, ands or buts.



History has deemed the Golden Age of superhero comics as the vitally important period where creators went nuts and threw everything out there to see what stuck. There wasn't a lot of deep character writing. Jay was a concept same as everyone else, didn't survive the collapse of superhero popularity, and the concept was revamped with Barry. The Silver Age is more highly regarded because it cemented the marquee characters and mythologies that acted as the foundations for both companies (for better or worse).

Calling Jay (as he was at the time, not what he would become in later stories with more complex writing) a rough draft is perfectly fair. Superman and Batman at that time were rough drafts of what they'd become as well.

Our opinions are not in universe. We are the ones who are casting our aspersions on the progression of the Flash Franchise. Also, I cannot track your logic. Barry Allen does not count as a legacy character because he was in a different continuity when he put on the red spandex and called himself The Flash (even though we all know his entire character concept is an homage to Jay Garrick, intended by the writer), but why does it not count that they changed the continuity to make him a direct legacy in the same universe? Why does Barry Allen keep this particular immunity with regards to him being the extra special case that gets to be The Flash even though he didn't come up with the name, didn't originate the name, and definitely didn't originate the power set or motif? Why don't retcons, which were made to correct and bolster the legacy that already was apparent, count, exactly?

Barry Allen took Jay Garrick's schtick, in the narrative, in the meta narrative, in real life. Named The Flash, used super speed to beat up bad guys, lightning bolts on a red background. The main things he changed were how the costume looked and the themes (Jay was a war hero, Barry was a science fiction character), but by that token Wally changed the theme of The Flash as much as Barry did before him.

We've had this conversation a few times, but I feel like you guys are jumping through absurd, arbitrary hoops to justify the idea that Barry is a unique special snowflake and he's the unique Flash and Jay never ever counted as The Flash and it wasn't really his name to begin with...even though it was. I don't get why they had to be in the same continuity for them to be a part of the same Flash legacy, and I don't get why them eventually becoming a part of the same continuity does not count because you say so.

Barry is Jay's lineage on a purely creative standpoint. You don't pick up your comic where the last guy left off and not be walking in his footsteps. You don't use his name and popularity to catapult yourself into relevance without being beholden to him. This ridiculous erasure of how important Jay is and was to The Flash franchise is distasteful.


Let me put it this way to both of you. Wally is fundamentally a legacy character to Barry Allen because without Barry Allen's influence and status as a character, Wally West would never exist, and Wally West would've never been The Flash.

Do you think Barry Allen would've existed if Jay did not? Do you think Barry Allen would be The Flash if Jay did not exist? Because I don't. A revamp is not mutually exclusive of being a legacy.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I think even my least favorite DC characters can be great in the right hands..

Agreed.

I hate (like, really, really hate) Hal Jordan and yet I'm loving his current comic.

[Arsenal]

Wonder Woman. I want to like the character but her stories do absolutely nothing for me. Same used to apply to superman but he's slowly grown on me.

Don't really care about any of the Lanterns. Or the Aqua-people.

Honestly? I like most of the legacy acts more than I do the characters they were introduced under.

[Sutekh]

Honestly? I like most of the legacy acts more than I do the characters they were introduced under.

Ditto. Kon, Dick, Wally and Roy, for instance, all interest me far more than Superman, Batman, Flash and Green Arrow. I just don't feel the 'classic' Justice League 'big seven' (or 'big six + whoever') all that much. I want to like some of them (Wonder Woman, Aquaman), but, even them, the stories just aren't there, most of the time, and, as a group, they get worse, reduced to catch-phrases and broadly drawn sketches.

[king81992]

Deathstroke. Really struggle with his solo title.

The only time I found a Deathstroke solo title to be interesting is right now, mostly because of Priest's writing. Before this run, I just couldn't be bothered.

[SiegePerilous02]

They're both fictional characters to us. We can track who came after who, who was based on who, who is who's legacy. This isn't just an in universe, narrative thing,

But you need to take that into account to determine the differences in all these legacy approaches. Because it's becoming apparent there are different takes on what "legacy" can mean, and fans can like one approach more than another.

and even if it was they changed the narrative for this to be the case!

When you change narratives, you are not honoring the company's past or its history. COIE telling us old stories either didn't happen, or they did happen but in different ways (like "The Flashes of Two Worlds') is what has created the confusion that has been compounded to this day. It is not a natural way to progress your universe. All the screw ups we've had in subsequent years, particularly for characters like Superman, Wonder Woman, the Legion, Donna Troy, Power Girl and the Hawks are a direct result of COIE merging the Earths. Creating a legacy for the JSA that didn't exist beforehand (not in the same way) really isn't worth it.

You saying this means you are basically admitting that these things are not harboiled into the Flash the way you think they are, or that they weren't always.

Also, I cannot track your logic. Barry Allen does not count as a legacy character because he was in a different continuity when he put on the red spandex and called himself The Flash (even though we all know his entire character concept is an homage to Jay Garrick, intended by the writer),

I've said repeatedly that Barry was not originally a legacy to Jay in the same way he became post-Crisis or Wally was for him. He was a legacy in a meta sense, but not in the way we think of it today. This goes back to my point that what fans view as legacy has multiple meanings/executions. The JLA/JSA Earth-1/Earth-2 split is clearly a different legacy from both teams being on the same Earth and the former coming before the latter and having direct mantle successors (like Jay to Barry, and Dinah and her mother).

Are the Earth-1 versions of Clark, Bruce and Diana legacies of themselves from Earth-2? Is Helena Bertinelli a legacy of Helena Wayne, even though the latter (an actual legacy of the Earth-2 Batman) no longer existed?

but why does it not count that they changed the continuity to make him a direct legacy in the same universe?

Because it's not the way the old stories played out, and is thusly ignoring the history and mythology established. You say a lot that the you want the stories to progress naturally. COIE was not a natural progression because it threw out old stories or changed them too much. It is a legacy that started in 1986. If you have to make a change, obviously something was different before hand and you can't pretend it wasn't always the case. It's really that simple.

Barry and Jay lived on different Earths. Post-Crisis, they were always on the same Earth. One narrative is not the same as another.

Why does Barry Allen keep this particular immunity with regards to him being the extra special case that gets to be The Flash even though he didn't come up with the name, didn't originate the name, and definitely didn't originate the power set or motif? Why don't retcons, which were made to correct and bolster the legacy that already was apparent, count, exactly?

Barry's not immune from being considered a meta legacy or a revamp, but again if you have to retcon him and Jay living on the same Earth so Jay can be a direct descendant instead of a fictional inspiration, you're changing the narrative for a different purpose from what it was before.

Why limit it to just Barry? We could discuss Hal, but I suspect he's more difficult because Alan is nowhere near as essential to the post-Silver Age GL mythos the way Jay eventually became for Barry. Are the Earth-1 Hawks Katar and Shayera legacies of Earth-2 Carter and Shiera? Again, are the Trinity (and Robin) legacies of themselves? Black Canary didn't used to be a legacy, she was the original Black Canary that jumped over to Earth-1. If you want to honor legacy, why not respect the original set-ups and build from there?

Like, Wally could have easily been Flash II instead of Flash III after Barry's death as far as Earth-1 was concerned. Jay would still be a heavy presence, it would just require Multiverse crossovers. And we wouldn't have had to awkwardly squeeze the JSA into the past of the main Earth, ruining the likes of the Hawks, Power Girl and the Huntress in the process.

We've had this conversation a few times, but I feel like you guys are jumping through absurd, arbitrary hoops to justify the idea that Barry is a unique special snowflake and he's the unique Flash and Jay never ever counted as The Flash and it wasn't really his name to begin with...even though it was.

And I feel like you are jumping through arbitrary hoops to discredit a claim (the Golden Age transition to the Silver Age canon being different from modern fan views on legacy) that actually has strong basis in fact if one actually reads the published material before COIE and notice that the trends that came afterward are very obviously different.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I haven't read DC Comics since Rebirth. I mean, is there really any debate that it's worse than the New 52 other than 'muh' continuity?

It was actually hailed as being a vast improvement in terms of quality, but whatever...

[C_Miller]

Yeah. Talk about convoluted. Unlike the Green Lanterns, I don't really feel like there'd even be a rewarding experience at the end of coming to understand Hawkman. Maybe if I put enough effort into understanding the GLs, I'm sure I'd see why that whole corner of the universe gets so much love, but Hawkman? Nah.

I mean it all depends on what you're looking for. If you're just looking for understanding for the sake of continuity, I'd argue that you're reading stories for the wrong reason. The best stories across the board have nothing to do with continuity, they're just good. All characters have those. Hawkman included.

To me, Hawkman is at his best when he's an intersection of Indiana Jones and Star Wars. Geoff Johns' series was like that and so is the current one. They are both self contained enough to just read those.

[Dred]

But you need to take that into account to determine the differences in all these legacy approaches. Because it's becoming apparent there are different takes on what "legacy" can mean, and fans can like one approach more than another.




When you change narratives, you are not honoring the company's past or its history. COIE telling us old stories either didn't happen, or they did happen but in different ways (like "The Flashes of Two Worlds') is what has created the confusion that has been compounded to this day. It is not a natural way to progress your universe. All the screw ups we've had in subsequent years, particularly for characters like Superman, Wonder Woman, the Legion, Donna Troy, Power Girl and the Hawks are a direct result of COIE merging the Earths. Creating a legacy for the JSA that didn't exist beforehand (not in the same way) really isn't worth it.

You saying this means you are basically admitting that these things are not harboiled into the Flash the way you think they are, or that they weren't always.



I've said repeatedly that Barry was not originally a legacy to Jay in the same way he became post-Crisis or Wally was for him. He was a legacy in a meta sense, but not in the way we think of it today. This goes back to my point that what fans view as legacy has multiple meanings/executions. The JLA/JSA Earth-1/Earth-2 split is clearly a different legacy from both teams being on the same Earth and the former coming before the latter and having direct mantle successors (like Jay to Barry, and Dinah and her mother).

Are the Earth-1 versions of Clark, Bruce and Diana legacies of themselves from Earth-2? Is Helena Bertinelli a legacy of Helena Wayne, even though the latter (an actual legacy of the Earth-2 Batman) no longer existed?



Because it's not the way the old stories played out, and is thusly ignoring the history and mythology established. You say a lot that the you want the stories to progress naturally. COIE was not a natural progression because it threw out old stories or changed them too much. It is a legacy that started in 1986. If you have to make a change, obviously something was different before hand and you can't pretend it wasn't always the case. It's really that simple.

Barry and Jay lived on different Earths. Post-Crisis, they were always on the same Earth. One narrative is not the same as another.



Barry's not immune from being considered a meta legacy or a revamp, but again if you have to retcon him and Jay living on the same Earth so Jay can be a direct descendant instead of a fictional inspiration, you're changing the narrative for a different purpose from what it was before.

Why limit it to just Barry? We could discuss Hal, but I suspect he's more difficult because Alan is nowhere near as essential to the post-Silver Age GL mythos the way Jay eventually became for Barry. Are the Earth-1 Hawks Katar and Shayera legacies of Earth-2 Carter and Shiera? Again, are the Trinity (and Robin) legacies of themselves? Black Canary didn't used to be a legacy, she was the original Black Canary that jumped over to Earth-1. If you want to honor legacy, why not respect the original set-ups and build from there?

Like, Wally could have easily been Flash II instead of Flash III after Barry's death as far as Earth-1 was concerned. Jay would still be a heavy presence, it would just require Multiverse crossovers. And we wouldn't have had to awkwardly squeeze the JSA into the past of the main Earth, ruining the likes of the Hawks, Power Girl and the Huntress in the process.



And I feel like you are jumping through arbitrary hoops to discredit a claim (the Golden Age transition to the Silver Age canon being different from modern fan views on legacy) that actually has strong basis in fact if one actually reads the published material before COIE and notice that the trends that came afterward are very obviously different.

They're obviously different, but when it's the only two times it's seriously happened it's not like there's a standard. A different situation does not negate that The Flash, Barry Allen, and everything that beget from them started with Jay as the Alpha. It also wasn't COIE, it was Flash of Two Worlds, that established what I'm talking about. Barry being definitively Flash II, even in his own world, happened less than 20 issues in. You can't get around the fact that Barry Allen does not exist and is not The Flash if not for Jay Garrick, either in the story or (MUCH more importantly) in real life. Like seriously, who are you telling to respect what? Should you be telling Infantino and and Fox to respect...their own...work? By not undermining it by directly connecting Jay and Barry across dimensions into the same multiverse?

[SiegePerilous02]

They're obviously different, but when it's the only two times it's seriously happened it's not like there's a standard. A different situation does not negate that The Flash, Barry Allen, and everything that beget from them started with Jay as the Alpha. It also wasn't COIE, it was Flash of Two Worlds, that established what I'm talking about. Barry being definitively Flash II, even in his own world, happened less than 20 issues in. You can't get around the fact that Barry Allen does not exist and is not The Flash if not for Jay Garrick, either in the story or (MUCH more importantly) in real life. Like seriously, who are you telling to respect what? Should you be telling Infantino and and Fox to respect...their own...work? By not undermining it by directly connecting Jay and Barry across dimensions into the same multiverse?

Standards don't need to be set. The mythos/multiverse was set up a certain way, and then it was altered by a reboot/retcons to be another way. Said reboot caused some irreparable damage to several characters from which they never recovered. it's really black and white. If you like the post-Crisis set up more than that's fine, but it's not the way the universe was always set up. Legacy isn't really the foundation of the DC universe the way some would have us believe. If we look at the old story telling, it seems like reboots are actually the foundation, funnily enough.

Flash of Two Worlds. Not "the Flash meets the retired Flash who lives in the next city over." Again, I have not said that Barry would exist without Jay being first, because clearly that's not the case. The creators set up the Multiverse 20 issues in, so they intended Barry to be a legacy of Jay in a sense, but not in the way he would become post-Crisis. These differences in executions are not irrelevant just because you say so. And why do we keep coming back to just Barry? Is it because Hal didn't tell Alan he was inspired by reading his stories and declared himself Green Lantern II both in universe and out of universe, so his status as a legacy doesn't hold up as well? Again, did the Earth-1 versions of Bruce, Clark and Diana read comics books starring Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman and patterned themselves off of them when they became superheroes? Does Thanagarian Katar count as a legacy of Carter even though he pretty much is the same character, just an alien instead of a reincarnated Egyptian? Because Barry is part of that generation on their Earth, and none of them are legacies. So he seems to be pretty much the only one, and not even in the sense that post-Crisis trends established.

Where am I telling people to respect anything? That seems to be all you.

[Dr. Skeleton]

Legion Of Superheroes. I had my mom buy me some of their old comics when I was a kid mainly because of Superboy. As I got older, they just didn't interest me although I always thought Lightning Lad had a badass costume and I did enjoy the cartoon show.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I think that as of now, at some point, almost every major character or team in the DCU has had at least one memorable run that is worth investing in. So, in that respect, its really hard to say that a certain character is just impossible for me to get into because at some point, they've probably had a terrific run that's absolutely worth investing in.