Let's Say Only 7 Rogues ...

[Vordan]

Yeah the raw materials for them are there but I think thats true for everything about Wonder Woman. She really doesn't need to be "fixed" but she needs to be updated and taken more seriously.


Also I noticed some people said Ares hasn't been a real threat, but I think part of that is just how he's been treated in Greek Myth because he never had a lot of focus and when he did the Greeks seemed to have hated him/made fun of him.

Eh it’s a stretch to try to attribute Ares loser status to Greek myth. Sure he’s a jobber there too, but it’s not like everyone are experts in Greek myth. The problem is Comics Ares hasn’t had a great story in a looooong time. He’s been a useless jobber for decades. His plans are always the same: Start a big war and feed off the carnage. He gets beaten too easily and he’s never really messed Diana up.

[Lex Luthor]

Eh it’s a stretch to try to attribute Ares loser status to Greek myth. Sure he’s a jobber there too, but it’s not like everyone are experts in Greek myth. The problem is Comics Ares hasn’t had a great story in a looooong time. He’s been a useless jobber for decades. His plans are always the same: Start a big war and feed off the carnage. He gets beaten too easily and he’s never really messed Diana up.

Maybe, maybe not. I can't say I ever understand what is going through the heads of WW's writers when they write her stories. I do agree that he is usually written badly but he is her most important villain so I think he definitely should be kept in any line up of her villains. He seems to have the same problems as all of her villains so its not specific to him. They are all jobbers that don't pose a threat to anybody and have super flimsy motivations and stories. I think you can honestly say the same about Diana too for the past decade or more. The only difference between him and other villains is that he is a greek god and we all know everyone loves writing them in WW.

[Nyssane]

I do agree that he is usually written badly but he is her most important villain so I think he definitely should be kept in any line up of her villains.

Most important villain is a stretch, considering he has spent most of his time post-Crisis as either a neutral party or straight up ally to Diana. So his jobbing isn't the problem: it's the fact that most WW writers don't even see him as a major villain.

[SiegePerilous02]

Ares is the starter villain. He's PERFECT for the backstory of the Amazons, and providing the motivation for Diana to leave, but he's pretty useless beyond that. Like, he's a powerful archetype, but not much of a character beyond that. Whereas the best villains DC has are strong archetypes AND great characters. Cheetah, especially the current Barbara Minerva, fits that criteria. When they are well written, the Joker and Lex do as well. Ares, at least when he's a full blown villain, is not.

Because he sucks lmao. But I haven’t seen anyone pick Devastation or Genocide either. Big hulking brutes whose only attribute is “hits harder” is lame. Doomsday is also a pretty shallow and boring character for that reason.

Edit: Looks like someone did pick Devestation, so I’ll take the L on this one.

It still blows my mind that the only WW villain to appear in YJ is Devastation. Like of all the options, why her?
Was it because Eric Luke worked on Gargoyles?

[astro@work]

1. Ares
2. Circe
3. Cheetah
4. Giganta
5. Dr. Poison
6. Silver Swan
7. Dr. Cyber

[Vordan]

Maybe, maybe not. I can't say I ever understand what is going through the heads of WW's writers when they write her stories. I do agree that he is usually written badly but he is her most important villain so I think he definitely should be kept in any line up of her villains. He seems to have the same problems as all of her villains so its not specific to him. They are all jobbers that don't pose a threat to anybody and have super flimsy motivations and stories. I think you can honestly say the same about Diana too for the past decade or more. The only difference between him and other villains is that he is a greek god and we all know everyone loves writing them in WW.

You’d have a hard time backing that up. How is he more important than say Cheetah or Circe who were big enough to make DCAU appearances even though Timm and Dini didn’t really care about WW? No one really cared about Ares in the DCEU. Ares is the beginner boss, but he’s not really all that important outside of Diana’s origin.

[Lex Luthor]

You’d have a hard time backing that up. How is he more important than say Cheetah or Circe who were big enough to make DCAU appearances even though Timm and Dini didn’t really care about WW? No one really cared about Ares in the DCEU. Ares is the beginner boss, but he’s not really all that important outside of Diana’s origin.

Most important villain is a stretch, considering he has spent most of his time post-Crisis as either a neutral party or straight up ally to Diana. So his jobbing isn't the problem: it's the fact that most WW writers don't even see him as a major villain.

He was the villain in the live action movie and her last animated film. He also did show up a couple of times in the JL/JLU cartoons. I think that he is the most important because he is a catalyst for her story and is integral to even the amazons. I can't think of another villain with as many appearances and as much presence in her comics. The rest sort of pop in and out from time to time.

[Nyssane]

He was the villain in the live action movie and her last animated film. He also did show up a couple of times in the JL/JLU cartoons. I think that he is the most important because he is a catalyst for her story and is integral to even the amazons. I can't think of another villain with as many appearances and as much presence in her comics. The rest sort of pop in and out from time to time.

Ares was cited by basically everyone who had any sort of criticism of the 2017 movie as being the worst aspect, so that's not exactly a shining achievement for the character.

He was only in one episode of Justice League (same as Circe).

In most origin stories, he has nothing to do with the amazons, but is merely the cause for Diana to leave Themyscira and then never be seen from or heard again in any sort of prominence. Post-Crisis, you could count on one hand the amount of stories where Ares was a villain to Wonder Woman:

1. Gods and Monsters where he was the main villain.
2. The bizarre Ares Buchanan storyline which didn't really make sense.
3. Rucka's first run where he was barely an antagonist as he helped Diana on more than one occasion.
4. Simone's run where Ares was swiftly killed by an ax-to-the-head.
5. And now, Wilson's story where Ares is kinda/sorta a villain but not really.

He's been depicted more than that as an ally/mentor to Wonder Woman or a neutral party:

1. During Jimenez's run where he punishes Deimos, Phobos, and Eris for meddling with Wonder Woman.
2. War of the Gods.
3. Throughout Byrne's run, he was seen in the background of Olympus without a care for Wonder Woman.
4. Eric Luke's run, he spent fighting the Children of Cronus and had nothing to do with WW.
5. The entire New 52 series had Ares as Diana's mentor.
6. Rebirth had Ares as a placated prisoner of love.

Rebirth even went so far as to make Diana's origin not really about Ares, but about his sons who posed as Ares. So he doesn't even have that in the current continuity.

Cheetah and Circe absolutely have had more appearances and presence in the comics than Ares. I won't go into all the ways as this has already been a long-winded reply, but Cheetah is used, by far, more than any other WW villain in her own comic and elsewhere. And Circe has made more villainous appearances over the years than Ares, including two major crossovers that featured her as the primary antagonist.

[daBronzeBomma]

So ... is that a flat, resounding "no" on Zeus over Ares as Diana's go-to overlord rogue?

[PopQuezy]

You’d have a hard time backing that up. How is he more important than say Cheetah or Circe who were big enough to make DCAU appearances even though Timm and Dini didn’t really care about WW? No one really cared about Ares in the DCEU. Ares is the beginner boss, but he’s not really all that important outside of Diana’s origin.

But Cheetah never shared a scene with Wonder Wonder, and Cheetah's only "major" appearance was with Batman. People could walk away from that show never knowing that Cheetah/Wonder Woman were from the same mythos.

Giganta is the Wonder Woman villain that seemed to get the best portrayal, and I use that term lightly. Circe got an entire episode dedicated to her, though Wonder Woman was a pig in most of the episode. From what I remember Ares episode was more about Hawk and Dove than Wonder Woman although she appeared.

For me, Cheetah's appearance in DCAU was about as important as Dr. Cyber and Angle Man's appearance, but the DCAU was not kind to Wonder Woman or her villains, at all.

Personally, I would rank Ares a more important villain than Cheetah. Ares connect Diana to both her past and present in a way that Cheetah does not, and Ares has had more significant outside media portrayals than Cheetah.

[Nyssane]

So ... is that a flat, resounding "no" on Zeus over Ares as Diana's go-to overlord rogue?

Basically. I like Circe as her overlord rogue as there are literally no female villains in comics history that serve as an A-List superhero's "overlord" baddie.

[CRaymond]

So ... is that a flat, resounding "no" on Zeus over Ares as Diana's go-to overlord rogue?

I'm a big fan of the IDEA of Zeus as Wonder Woman's endgame villain for all the reasons you list; I feel the stereotypical comicbooky maniacal overlord isn't his lane.

STILL, the notion of Zeus as the absent tyrant, the "Darkseid" of Earth, seeing and interpreting Zeus as the divine expression of The Patriachy is EXACTLY the role I'd want for him were I to get the reins of the Wonderbooks. Diana is trying to overthrow Zeus's rule of the material world by transforming hearts and minds, while Ares is Zeus' first lieutenant in her way - WAR as a tool to maintain the status quo of The Patriarchy.

It's lofty AF, but I really like the notion you started. I'd even suggest Shazam is Zeus' magical prison. Wonder Woman works with Billy to direct Zeus' power in a more Amazonian manner.

[SiegePerilous02]

Personally, I would rank Ares a more important villain than Cheetah. Ares connect Diana to both her past and present in a way that Cheetah does not, and Ares has had more significant outside media portrayals than Cheetah.

Ehh, I'd say they are about even, at most. She's gonna be joining him in the DCEU soon enough, and it remains to be seen how big her impact and shelf life will be. He's a starter villain, she may be a recurring antagonist (and she has the benefit of getting fleshed out after the origin, which needs to focus mostly on the hero and one of the reasons why Ares wasn't anything special). Superfriends, as goofy as it is, left a huge mark on pop culture and she's depicted as WW's nemesis there. Ares got an animated DTV, but Cheetah was in JL: Doom. They are both in the Injustice games.

And she's in DC Superhero Girls. I might even give the edge to her. A few of Cheetah's appearances are at least well liked generally, but nobody ever seems enthused by any of Ares's media appearances.

[Agent Z]

So ... is that a flat, resounding "no" on Zeus over Ares as Diana's go-to overlord rogue?

I'd support it. I even listed Zeus in choices for seven rogues.

[Michael Watkins]

1. The Cheetah

2. Circe

3. Ares

4. Herakles

5. Giganta

6. Doctor Psycho

7. Mouse Man