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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I can understand Steve is more popular than Sam, but why didn’t Remender and Spencer imbue Sam with some love by the MU citizens instead of all the hate? Sales figures are popularity contests, but portraying your new Falcon Cap as worthy, and respected still helps Sam be Captain America, instead of portraying Sam as “Not my Cap”. Give him a chance in comics, not discard him as soon as he wears the costume. It’s sabotage to my mind.
    Spencer kept it real. Sam got plenty of love from his fellow heroes. And certainly he had his fans among the public but the political machine wanted to keep him down.

    Part of the point that Spencer was making was that much of what Steve was able to take for granted as far as people respecting his stature and leadership, Sam had to fight every inch for. To not be honest about how a black Captain America would be received would be a failure on Spencer's part. His job as a writer isn't to traffic in pure wish fulfillment. Yes, every fan of Sam would to see him lauded as Captain America but the truth is he would meet with a great deal of resistance.

    If you don't think that's true, look at the hostile reaction in some segments of fandom when Sam became Cap.

    As much as Spencer threw at Sam, though, it only made Sam seem that much more heroic. He had to contend with so much more grief from all sides than Steve ever did and yet still rose to the occasion as best he could.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I can understand Steve is more popular than Sam, but why didn’t Remender and Spencer imbue Sam with some love by the MU citizens instead of all the hate? Sales figures are popularity contests, but portraying your new Falcon Cap as worthy, and respected still helps Sam be Captain America, instead of portraying Sam as “Not my Cap”. Give him a chance in comics, not discard him as soon as he wears the costume. It’s sabotage to my mind.
    Dunno why everyone's so harsh on Rick R in this. In his short time as Sam writer, he permanently snuffed the 'Snap Wilson Pimp' and had Sam make the right choice between saving the shield or a random enemy mook

  3. #78
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Dunno why everyone's so harsh on Rick R in this. In his short time as Sam writer, he permanently snuffed the 'Snap Wilson Pimp' and had Sam make the right choice between saving the shield or a random enemy mook
    Getting rid of the ridulous pimp stuff alone should make most Sam fans feel indebted to Remenders run. That was long long overdue.

  4. #79
    Fantastic Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Spencer kept it real. Sam got plenty of love from his fellow heroes. And certainly he had his fans among the public but the political machine wanted to keep him down.

    Part of the point that Spencer was making was that much of what Steve was able to take for granted as far as people respecting his stature and leadership, Sam had to fight every inch for. To not be honest about how a black Captain America would be received would be a failure on Spencer's part. His job as a writer isn't to traffic in pure wish fulfillment. Yes, every fan of Sam would to see him lauded as Captain America but the truth is he would meet with a great deal of resistance.

    If you don't think that's true, look at the hostile reaction in some segments of fandom when Sam became Cap.

    As much as Spencer threw at Sam, though, it only made Sam seem that much more heroic. He had to contend with so much more grief from all sides than Steve ever did and yet still rose to the occasion as best he could.
    Ah I think you hit the nail on the head "wish fulfillment" is indeed what "fans" wanted and once they didn't well we know what happened.

    I wonder though was there a outcry like this for Riri Williams, Jane Foster, or Amadeus Cho? They were treated as heroes in the Marvel Universe but that didn't help their popularity in the real world, so why are people saying it would have helped Sam?

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Dunno why everyone's so harsh on Rick R in this. In his short time as Sam writer, he permanently snuffed the 'Snap Wilson Pimp' and had Sam make the right choice between saving the shield or a random enemy mook
    I'd also add that bringing up the Cosmic Cube altering his past helped cement the importance to the story Spencer was doing as well.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I'd also add that bringing up the Cosmic Cube altering his past helped cement the importance to the story Spencer was doing as well.
    No one's brought it up, but Rick's retcon plus Stevil means both Steve and Sam are victims of cube manipulation. Add Buck getting his mind back in Bru's run, and they're Cosmic Cube bros!
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I'd also add that bringing up the Cosmic Cube altering his past helped cement the importance to the story Spencer was doing as well.
    Except that it didn't alter his past, it altered Sam's memories. Prior to Stevil, the cube has never been able to affect the past like it did

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I'd also add that bringing up the Cosmic Cube altering his past helped cement the importance to the story Spencer was doing as well.
    Yeah, no.

    Besides what I already posted, we saw Spencer dismiss all of Rick R's plots in his first issue, getting rid of Zemo's Hydra with a secret superhero insider...to do his own Hydra with Zemo who had their own secret hero insider. Because Marvel writers have to non conform like everyone else regardless of logic.

    Spencer pretty much dismissed Rick R's Cap to do his own thing

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I don't really see how Rick's Hydra mole on every team except one of them is clearly the Thing idea could've panned out better than just doing the one character who's actually sacred. And Zemo in Rick's stuff was pretty cool but lacking depth from his character derailment during the Brubakering. Rebuilding him from the ground up was way better.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I don't really see how Rick's Hydra mole on every team except one of them is clearly the Thing idea could've panned out better than just doing the one character who's actually sacred. And Zemo in Rick's stuff was pretty cool but lacking depth from his character derailment during the Brubakering. Rebuilding him from the ground up was way better.
    Having read Rick R's X-Force and Nick Spencer's Secret Empire, I think I know who'd I'd trust to pull off an epic spy story.

    Hint, it ain't Nick.

    Making Zemo Stevil's lapdog, which he remains, is not a step up

  11. #86
    algerién w fier responsarbre's Avatar
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    Having read both their attempts at Secret Avengers, I’m actually not sure I really trust either of them to pull off a good spy story.

    I like Zemo enough that I’m just happy to see him pop up anywhere, but I do think that making him #obsessed with Stevil kind of overshadows the stuff that used to drive Zemo more in the past (like being the world’s biggest narcissist). Like the fact that his rematch with both the Thunderbolts AND Bucky was slightly diminished by him doing it all for Steve instead of his own ego. On the other hand, I kind of like the way Rosenberg has Zemo holding onto his Kobik-memories and still being obsessed with Stevil in his Punisher run.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by responsarbre View Post
    Having read both their attempts at Secret Avengers, I’m actually not sure I really trust either of them to pull off a good spy story.

    I like Zemo enough that I’m just happy to see him pop up anywhere, but I do think that making him #obsessed with Stevil kind of overshadows the stuff that used to drive Zemo more in the past (like being the world’s biggest narcissist). Like the fact that his rematch with both the Thunderbolts AND Bucky was slightly diminished by him doing it all for Steve instead of his own ego. On the other hand, I kind of like the way Rosenberg has Zemo holding onto his Kobik-memories and still being obsessed with Stevil in his Punisher run.
    I thought Remender's Secret Avengers was more interesting and I liked how high-concept it went. Spencer's was well done, I just personally didn't care for the S.H.I.E.L.D. angle. Also I just kind of find Maria Hill to be really annoying who constantly makes stupid decision after stupid decision and either never faces consequences or never learns.

    At least in Spencer's Cap, he has her face some kind of consequence, even if she still learns absolutely nothing by the end. And there was a pretty human moment with her that I liked, where she admits one of her main reasonings for the Pleasant Hill program was so she would have somewhere to retire after she was finished.

    As for Zemo, I will argue I didn't see it as him completely being obsessed with Stevil, and moreso with what Stevil represented for what he wants in power/Hydra. Like right before he "kills" Bucky, he straight up says how he knows Stevil's memories with their history are fake, but if he believes it he'll go along because ultimately its what he wants too. He accepts it all as the new truth because its what benefits him, and I think that's interesting enough.
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  13. #88
    algerién w fier responsarbre's Avatar
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    Yeah, and I liked that explanation, although I still think Zemo would refuse to leave himself as #2 for long.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I don't really see how Rick's Hydra mole on every team except one of them is clearly the Thing idea could've panned out better than just doing the one character who's actually sacred. And Zemo in Rick's stuff was pretty cool but lacking depth from his character derailment during the Brubakering. Rebuilding him from the ground up was way better.
    Remender's Hydra storyline would have been much more conventional. Still entertaining in its own right, I'm sure, but Spencer's story was far bolder so I'm happy that's the one we got.

  15. #90
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Remender's Hydra storyline would have been much more conventional. Still entertaining in its own right, I'm sure, but Spencer's story was far bolder so I'm happy that's the one we got.
    I think how conventional it would've been would've depended a lot on who was Hydra, but they probably wouldn't have been able to go that far with it (although they were already hinting it might have been Sharon).

    (Granted, thinking on it, the story just sounds like a retread of Secret Invasion with an added dose of Millennium).

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