Spencer's Captain America

[9th.]

I loved Sam Wilson's Cap, one of my favorite books in recent memory.

[jackolover]

Spencer kept it real. Sam got plenty of love from his fellow heroes. And certainly he had his fans among the public but the political machine wanted to keep him down.

Part of the point that Spencer was making was that much of what Steve was able to take for granted as far as people respecting his stature and leadership, Sam had to fight every inch for. To not be honest about how a black Captain America would be received would be a failure on Spencer's part. His job as a writer isn't to traffic in pure wish fulfillment. Yes, every fan of Sam would to see him lauded as Captain America but the truth is he would meet with a great deal of resistance.

If you don't think that's true, look at the hostile reaction in some segments of fandom when Sam became Cap.

As much as Spencer threw at Sam, though, it only made Sam seem that much more heroic. He had to contend with so much more grief from all sides than Steve ever did and yet still rose to the occasion as best he could.

To me it felt like Sam as Cap was very uncomfortable. It’s like trying to be Cap is cursed. Steve Rogers assumed Sam would be just be Captain America when Steve endorsed Sam as Cap. Was Steve naive to think the mantle of Captain America wouldn’t poison whoever put on the suit? Or did Steve know Sam was going to get the heat, because Sam was racially not the same as Steve?

In any case if Nick Spencer was trying to be real, writing a story about Sam, maybe Nick should have made it plain that Steve Rogers anticipated Sam was going to be vilified for daring to think a racially diverse person like Sam could be accepted. I think Nick should have made that perfectly clear as well.

[jackolover]

Ah I think you hit the nail on the head "wish fulfillment" is indeed what "fans" wanted and once they didn't well we know what happened.

I wonder though was there a outcry like this for Riri Williams, Jane Foster, or Amadeus Cho? They were treated as heroes in the Marvel Universe but that didn't help their popularity in the real world, so why are people saying it would have helped Sam?

I don’t know that Sam being Cap would have helped his popularity, as long as it didn’t make it worse, but being Cap did reduce his popularity to the citizens of the MU. I would have liked it if Sam was let alone so he could be Cap and not be hounded.

[jackolover]

No one's brought it up, but Rick's retcon plus Stevil means both Steve and Sam are victims of cube manipulation. Add Buck getting his mind back in Bru's run, and they're Cosmic Cube bros!

I never looked at it that way before, but if the Cosmic Cube altered Steve Rogers story, maybe it also altered Sam Wilson’s story, or even made the people dislike Sam as Cap?

[charliehustle415]

To me it felt like Sam as Cap was very uncomfortable. It’s like trying to be Cap is cursed. Steve Rogers assumed Sam would be just be Captain America when Steve endorsed Sam as Cap. Was Steve naive to think the mantle of Captain America wouldn’t poison whoever put on the suit? Or did Steve know Sam was going to get the heat, because Sam was racially not the same as Steve?

In any case if Nick Spencer was trying to be real, writing a story about Sam, maybe Nick should have made it plain that Steve Rogers anticipated Sam was going to be vilified for daring to think a racially diverse person like Sam could be accepted. I think Nick should have made that perfectly clear as well.

Now that would have been interesting, having Steve choose Sam because he is a person of color. However, it would have been problematic because then you would have had critics saying he was only chosen because he was a person of color.

I don’t know that Sam being Cap would have helped his popularity, as long as it didn’t make it worse, but being Cap did reduce his popularity to the citizens of the MU. I would have liked it if Sam was let alone so he could be Cap and not be hounded.

It would have been nice to have a story where he wasn't always chased by protesters, which by the way I always found so funny in Spencer's run; it was quite literally a "Twitter Mob" physically following Sam around the MU with #notmycaptain

[capandkirby]

To me it felt like Sam as Cap was very uncomfortable. It’s like trying to be Cap is cursed. Steve Rogers assumed Sam would be just be Captain America when Steve endorsed Sam as Cap. Was Steve naive to think the mantle of Captain America wouldn’t poison whoever put on the suit? Or did Steve know Sam was going to get the heat, because Sam was racially not the same as Steve?

In any case if Nick Spencer was trying to be real, writing a story about Sam, maybe Nick should have made it plain that Steve Rogers anticipated Sam was going to be vilified for daring to think a racially diverse person like Sam could be accepted. I think Nick should have made that perfectly clear as well.

No. Steve picked Sam because he was one of Steve’s best friends and he trusted Sam for the job. Point-blank, period. The cube had not created Stevil yet when Sam was chosen. It was Remender, not Spencer, who wrote the mantle passing. Moreover we have canon evidence that Steve did not see the mantle as a curse.

Exhibit 1: after Steve was shot, following Civil War, Tony received a post-dated letter from Steve asking for Tony to choose another Cap because “the mantle must live on”. Tony chose Clint, then Bucky.

Exhibit 2: in the most recent Cap issue by Coates Steve said, point-blank, that he finally realized that Bucky being put on trial when he was Cap, and Sam experiencing all of the backlash he received, and Steve himself being framed for murder and also Nomad and also John Walker had never been personal, that the entire time the government had been after the shield. Control the symbol, control the message. It was an epiphany Steve just now came to. That is why he gave the shield to Sharon. That is why she called the Daughters of Liberty.

To even suggest Steve had malicious intent when giving Sam the shield when there is so much canon evidence to contradict that claim is a deliberate bad faith reading.

[XPac]

To me it felt like Sam as Cap was very uncomfortable. It’s like trying to be Cap is cursed. Steve Rogers assumed Sam would be just be Captain America when Steve endorsed Sam as Cap. Was Steve naive to think the mantle of Captain America wouldn’t poison whoever put on the suit? Or did Steve know Sam was going to get the heat, because Sam was racially not the same as Steve?

In any case if Nick Spencer was trying to be real, writing a story about Sam, maybe Nick should have made it plain that Steve Rogers anticipated Sam was going to be vilified for daring to think a racially diverse person like Sam could be accepted. I think Nick should have made that perfectly clear as well.

I bet on some level Steve recognized how difficult it would be for anyone to carry on his mantle. But that's precisely why he picked Sam. Because he knew that not only could Sam do it, but he could do it in his own way. He wouldn't be a clone of Steve, he would be his own man.

[jackolover]

No. Steve picked Sam because he was one of Steve’s best friends and he trusted Sam for the job. Point-blank, period. The cube had not created Stevil yet when Sam was chosen. It was Remender, not Spencer, who wrote the mantle passing. Moreover we have canon evidence that Steve did not see the mantle as a curse.

Exhibit 1: after Steve was shot, following Civil War, Tony received a post-dated letter from Steve asking for Tony to choose another Cap because “the mantle must live on”. Tony chose Clint, then Bucky.

Exhibit 2: in the most recent Cap issue by Coates Steve said, point-blank, that he finally realized that Bucky being put on trial when he was Cap, and Sam experiencing all of the backlash he received, and Steve himself being framed for murder and also Nomad and also John Walker had never been personal, that the entire time the government had been after the shield. Control the symbol, control the message. It was an epiphany Steve just now came to. That is why he gave the shield to Sharon. That is why she called the Daughters of Liberty.

To even suggest Steve had malicious intent when giving Sam the shield when there is so much canon evidence to contradict that claim is a deliberate bad faith reading.

I wasn’t making the claim, I was asking the question. As to Remender doing the story of Steve endorsing Sam as Cap, I know that.

As to exhibit 1, that doesn’t prove Steve knew the Cap identity was poison, just that Steve saw there needed to be a Cap to give the public hope.

Exhibit 2. My feeling was Steve refused to hand over his shield, because Hydra wanted to prove the indentation marks on Ross’s body were from the official shield, not that the government were trying to own the shield, as if that would ever mean anything. The Black Widow would steal it in any case before it got to any secure location.

But it isn’t the shield that makes Captain America. It’s the person. The government can give the shield to John Walker, but the real Cap would take it off him anyway. The thing of it is, the country needs the real Cap, not some government dupe, so the government can make up anybody they like and call him Captain America, but unless he rebukes his handlers, people will know the government dupe doesn’t stand for the people, but just a communist-type fool.

[jackolover]

I bet on some level Steve recognized how difficult it would be for anyone to carry on his mantle. But that's precisely why he picked Sam. Because he knew that not only could Sam do it, but he could do it in his own way. He wouldn't be a clone of Steve, he would be his own man.

I was still disappointed, even though you may be right. I just wanted a fair go for Sam, but both writer and the MU public weren’t going to give him that. It always felt like Sam was pushing **** up hill. I would have liked to see Nick Spencer do that to Luke Cage as Cap. I think Luke would have been far meaner at people, and less idealistic.

[capandkirby]

I wasn’t making the claim, I was asking the question. As to Remender doing the story of Steve endorsing Sam as Cap, I know that.

As to exhibit 1, that doesn’t prove Steve knew the Cap identity was poison, just that Steve saw there needed to be a Cap to give the public hope.

Exhibit 2. My feeling was Steve refused to hand over his shield, because Hydra wanted to prove the indentation marks on Ross’s body were from the official shield, not that the government were trying to own the shield, as if that would ever mean anything. The Black Widow would steal it in any case before it got to any secure location.

But it isn’t the shield that makes Captain America. It’s the person. The government can give the shield to John Walker, but the real Cap would take it off him anyway. The thing of it is, the country needs the real Cap, not some government dupe, so the government can make up anybody they like and call him Captain America, but unless he rebukes his handlers, people will know the government dupe doesn’t stand for the people, but just a communist-type fool.

The shield is a symbol of what Captain America stands for: the American Dream. The ideals. Not the reality. Steve has said this over and over, in every single Cap run since Englehart. He also was pretty clear about it in last month’s issue. He said, point-blank, that they had come after anyone who had been Cap, name-dropped specific incidents, i.e. Bucky going to trial, as a means to hijack the symbol. A ‘person’ is easy to ruin, re: make Bucky stand trial as the Winter Soldier, publish editorials criticizing Sam’s tenure, frame Steve for murder. But the symbol of the shield, what it stands for: liberty, equal opportunity, freedom, lives on beyond Steve, Bucky or Sam. Steve deliberately does not turn the shield in, even though Nick Jr. specifically asks for it, because Steve knew, and he said this, in dialogue, the hope that the symbol represents must live on.

I’m on my phone and not a desktop, but I will post panels if you need a refresher.

Also, if Steve viewed the mantle as a curse he wouldn’t have requested it to live on beyond his existence in this mortal plane. That’s not to say it’s easy, it’s definitely difficult, Steve is aware of that much. But he did not deliberately set Sam up to fail.

[XPac]

I was still disappointed, even though you may be right. I just wanted a fair go for Sam, but both writer and the MU public weren’t going to give him that. It always felt like Sam was pushing **** up hill. I would have liked to see Nick Spencer do that to Luke Cage as Cap. I think Luke would have been far meaner at people, and less idealistic.

Hmmm... a Luge Cage Captain America would have been interesting. I agree he'd be different from Sam, despite them likely having to deal with Similar issues.

But you're right... Sam didn't quite get a fair shot from a lot of people. And that's a good thing in a sense that it did create some unique stories which you just can't tell with Steve. But yeah... part of me wishes that Sam didn't have to struggle with it as much as he did the entire time.

[Inversed]

To me it felt like Sam as Cap was very uncomfortable. It’s like trying to be Cap is cursed. Steve Rogers assumed Sam would be just be Captain America when Steve endorsed Sam as Cap. Was Steve naive to think the mantle of Captain America wouldn’t poison whoever put on the suit? Or did Steve know Sam was going to get the heat, because Sam was racially not the same as Steve?

In any case if Nick Spencer was trying to be real, writing a story about Sam, maybe Nick should have made it plain that Steve Rogers anticipated Sam was going to be vilified for daring to think a racially diverse person like Sam could be accepted. I think Nick should have made that perfectly clear as well.

I think what makes the hate for Sam as Captain America interesting because it didn't start off as "because he was racially different." As shown in the pre-Secret Wars stories, everyone is fine with him. It's after he decides to stand up and speak out about other stuff he believes in, is when the public turns on him, accusing him of "pushing an agenda" on the Captain America symbol, which directly leads to them attacking everything else about him.

[capandkirby]

The shield is a symbol of what Captain America stands for: the American Dream. The ideals. Not the reality. Steve has said this over and over, in every single Cap run since Englehart. He also was pretty clear about it in last month’s issue. He said, point-blank, that they had come after anyone who had been Cap, name-dropped specific incidents, i.e. Bucky going to trial, as a means to hijack the symbol. A ‘person’ is easy to ruin, re: make Bucky stand trial as the Winter Soldier, publish editorials criticizing Sam’s tenure, frame Steve for murder. But the symbol of the shield, what it stands for: liberty, equal opportunity, freedom, lives on beyond Steve, Bucky or Sam. Steve deliberately does not turn the shield in, even though Nick Jr. specifically asks for it, because Steve knew, and he said this, in dialogue, the hope that the symbol represents must live on.

I’m on my phone and not a desktop, but I will post panels if you need a refresher.

Also, if Steve viewed the mantle as a curse he wouldn’t have requested it to live on beyond his existence in this mortal plane. That’s not to say it’s easy, it’s definitely difficult, Steve is aware of that much. But he did not deliberately set Sam up to fail.

Here you be. He said, point-blank, it’s not the person, it’s what Captain America represents (as Sharon looks down at the shield Steve gave her before he turned himself in). This is not the actions of a man trying to hide what the government is claiming to be a murder weapon, it’s the actions of a man who does not want ‘them’ to win in hijaking the symbol.

Attachment 78471

[Frontier]

Hmmm... a Luge Cage Captain America would have been interesting. I agree he'd be different from Sam, despite them likely having to deal with Similar issues.

Luke cage is too much of a brand into himself to be Captain America.

Although his daughter being a future Cap comes up a lot.

I think what makes the hate for Sam as Captain America interesting because it didn't start off as "because he was racially different." As shown in the pre-Secret Wars stories, everyone is fine with him. It's after he decides to stand up and speak out about other stuff he believes in, is when the public turns on him, accusing him of "pushing an agenda" on the Captain America symbol, which directly leads to them attacking everything else about him.

I don't think we really got much of a public reaction to him as Cap before Spencer since he was off stopping Zemo before Remender could easily focus on it, but I think there was at least one flash to Sam in a cafe where he overhears a guy saying "he's not Captain America."

[Snoop Dogg]

Being black was only one reason Sam was hated. More like frosting on the cake. The candles are that he wasn't a veteran. The sprinkles were that he was new.

But the cake was that he got involved, unlike all his predecessors and antithetical to Steve's "stay out of current affairs and act as America's overseer and dad" approach.

Sam was a social worker who ran for office who tried to use his position to really make a difference and tackle problems he knew were there. It's like a controversy stew. But that's what makes him a great everyman lead. Probably why Nick likes him so much, too.