Is Vulture really a great villain?

[The Overlord]

A lot of people have talked about how great Spider-Man's rogues gallery and how they are they looking forward to seeing Vulture in the next Spider-Man and how Vulture will finally be a great MCU villain, but let me ask you this, is Vulture really a great villain?

What does Vulture bring to the table that Green Goblin doesn't? Vulture can fly, Green Goblin can fly and do a million other things and Gobby seems like a better schemer then Vulture.

People say Vulture is intelligent, but too often he engages in the same smash and grab tactics that idiots like Rhino engage in. He shows flashes of intelligence or planning, but not enough to come across as a really intellectual villain.

Also plot threads get introduced with him and go nowhere, making for a confused and inconsistent personality. Yeah his original origin of getting revenge on his business partner was kinda interesting, but that just seems like excuse for him to become another bank robbing goon, his revenge was complete a long time ago. He has a sick grandson and daughter in SHIELD, who have been mentioned again. His friendship with Nate Lubensky was kinda interesting and being responsible for his death was kinda death was kinda interesting, but has that ever been mentioned since the early 90s? Vulture convincing a bunch children to steal for him was creepy, but will that ever be mentioned again?

Here is a good question, what kind of character is Vulture, is he a sympathetic villain, some totally immoral creep or some generic bank robbing villain who exits so Spidey can have someone to punch?

[DieHard200904]

Comic books are not the most brilliant literature out there. I mean even Osborn ended up stabbing himself with his own glider, which they also put in the 2002 movie. Most of the hype for Vulture is that he is not a Goblin re-hash in a Spider-Man movie, or that he hasn't shown up live action yet.

The base concept of the Vulture is that he is Adrian Tomes, a man who got bored with his life so he made a flight suit to go commit crimes with it. He also wants to de-age as well, so he is trying to develop a youth serum for himself. He is essentially a sympathetic villain, or just a villain who is stuck in his own world based on a personal base desire (reliving youth).

[The Overlord]

Comic books are not the most brilliant literature out there. I mean even Osborn ended up stabbing himself with his own glider, which they also put in the 2002 movie. Most of the hype for Vulture is that he is not a Goblin re-hash in a Spider-Man movie, or that he hasn't shown up live action yet.

The base concept of the Vulture is that he is Adrian Tomes, a man who got bored with his life so he made a flight suit to go commit crimes with it. He also wants to de-age as well, so he is trying to develop a youth serum for himself. He is essentially a sympathetic villain, or just a villain who is stuck in his own world based on a personal base desire (reliving youth).

But how is Vulture that much different from Goblin, if he just has paired version of Goblin's gimmicks? Like I said Vulture can fly, Goblin can fly and a do a million other things.

Also if Vulture is supposed to be sympathetic, why do they put him in unsympathetic stories where he is using children to do his thieving for him or trying to kill everyone in the city (yep that story happened in the 90s)? You can't have it both ways. You always can't say he is a sympathetic villain and then just write him as a generic greedy villain, that is not a sympathetic character. There are flashes of a sympathetic villain there, but the threads don't equal the whole, character elements that come and go.

A lot of people will say comic books are not high literature, but we have seen truly great stories in comics, including Spider-Man comics and I not asking for the moon, I asking for better consistent writing on some of these B-list villains, rather then using them as plot devices who only exist to get punched by Spidey.

I hope the writers do something amazing with Vulture in the new movie, but he could end up another underwhelming MCU villain, he was never my favorite Spidey villain and I never thought he was that great, at least in the 616 universe, I think I might like some the alternate versions better.

[Aioros22]

In the road to Clone Saga, Volture pretty much played a huge part in the ongoing plot of Peter losing the sense of his own identity and notion of self, nevermind manufacturing a vírus that seemingly is killing Peter slowly. If I recall Octavius, out of respect for May tries to revert it and only briefly suceeds.

In a way I always saw the Volture as a creppy villain, despite the somewhat campy style of tactics. Sandman and a few others have remarked in stories how he creeps them out as well. He`s the sort of villain that doesn`t show up much but that you should never turn your back because he`s the ultimate oportunist. He`s pretty up there for me, together with the Jackal.

[MindofShadow]

Not really.

I'd say most of Spidey's rogues are memorable but not "great"

there is a difference.

[The Overlord]

In the road to Clone Saga, Volture pretty much played a huge part in the ongoing plot of Peter losing the sense of his own identity and notion of self, nevermind manufacturing a vírus that seemingly is killing Peter slowly. If I recall Octavius, out of respect for May tries to revert it and only briefly suceeds.

In a way I always saw the Volture as a creppy villain, despite the somewhat campy style of tactics. Sandman and a few others have remarked in stories how he creeps them out as well. He`s the sort of villain that doesn`t show up much but that you should never turn your back because he`s the ultimate oportunist. He`s pretty up there for me, together with the Jackal.

I don't mean to harp on this, but those stories seem to be contradicted by the stories that do try to paint him in a sympathetic light.

is Vulture just an evil psychopath or is he just a victim of circumstances who has loved ones that he is trying to help? Those two characterizations do not mesh well and that is ignoring all the stories where he is just a generic villain.

I don't think people can agree on what kind of character Vulture is, because the stories present him in conflicting ways.

[Alan2099]

is Vulture just an evil psychopath or is he just a victim of circumstances who has loved ones that he is trying to help? Those two characterizations do not mesh well and that is ignoring all the stories where he is just a generic villain.

He's not an evil psychopath, at least not in the ways we think of.

At his core, he's just old and mean, and devious with a lifetime of experience behind him.

Yes, he's got his loved ones and he's been though some bad things, but even with all that, he's still just a cold hearted jerk with a vicious streak. He's the type of character that appears in movies tormenting little kids.

[John Ossie]

I think he's great for short story arcs but unless he's part of the Sinister Six I don't really see him as that great a villain. Has his moments but not great IMO.

[Rob London]

The Vulture is a victim of circumstances; but he allowed those circumstances to make him into a cruel, bitter man. Sometimes the man he was shows through, but more often his pettiness and greed guide his actions.

He's also a great visual, and his fights with Spider-Man take the web-slinger out of his element - plus, as an old man, he highlights Spider-Man's youth and inexperience, which will be especially true in Homecoming with its teenage Spider-Man. I'm looking forward to seeing him in the movie.

[Scott Taylor]

The vulture is sneaky and flies silently around. At least, that was his original M.O. The mechanized suit gives me a little concern that he's going to be a glorified drone of some kind. Really hoping he isn't some kind of screaming jet fighter with wings, flying around all rambunctiously. He should be treacherous, fast and unpredictable. Like every old guy with new technology would actually be!

[The Overlord]

The Vulture is a victim of circumstances; but he allowed those circumstances to make him into a cruel, bitter man. Sometimes the man he was shows through, but more often his pettiness and greed guide his actions.

He's also a great visual, and his fights with Spider-Man take the web-slinger out of his element - plus, as an old man, he highlights Spider-Man's youth and inexperience, which will be especially true in Homecoming with its teenage Spider-Man. I'm looking forward to seeing him in the movie.

Okay, but here is the huge puzzle piece that is missing, what kind of man was Adrian Toomes before he became the Vulture? Really the only thing we know about him is got ripped off by his business partner and he was really old when that happened.

What was he like before that? Did that one incident make him bitter and mean, I doubt it. He has a daughter and a grand son, so it might figure it has been married, what happened to his wife, is she dead, was she a gold digger? If he had a wife who tragically died or broke his heart, that would explain why he became bitter, maybe even make it more tragic. It gives him a character arc, rather then coming across as one dimensional bitter old man.

Why not give Vulture a really good character focused arc? He has been around for 50 years, how many character focused stories has he had?

I also think he is supposed to be a intellectual villain, he should written that way, not engage in the same smash and grab tactics the likes of Rhino commit. He doesn't have to be as ambitious as Dr. Octopus or green Goblin, but give some actually schemes are more complex then physically robbing a bank with his abilities. At least when he was recruiting kids to do his bidding, that was creepy and outside the box, its something Rhino or Electro would not have thought of. More intellectual stuff, less smash and grab tactics would help the character a lot.

[Mister Mets]

I think he's an excellent villain. He's an interesting mirror to Spidey, and he has a compelling personality.

[Webhead]

Pretty much what everyone's said. The old age element is unique to him among Spidey's rogues, as is his apparent obsession to regain a sense of youth, either literally (during that ridiculous 90's era where he drained life forces) or metaphorically (by the mere fact of putting on a costume and committing crime). This is emphasized when he gets sick: his way of empowering himself, confronted by a situation that makes him powerless, is to indulge in violence and crime, instead of seeking help or helping others (in that sense he's another foil to Peter). And like other rogues he's a heartless bastard who cares very little about anyone and will stop at nearly nothing to have his way.

You could argue he's not a very personal foe, but then again I never thought all foes should get things personal with the hero -after all, if "it's personal" with all of them, it's personal with none.

[The Overlord]

Pretty much what everyone's said. The old age element is unique to him among Spidey's rogues, as is his apparent obsession to regain a sense of youth, either literally (during that ridiculous 90's era where he drained life forces) or metaphorically (by the mere fact of putting on a costume and committing crime). This is emphasized when he gets sick: his way of empowering himself, confronted by a situation that makes him powerless, is to indulge in violence and crime, instead of seeking help or helping others (in that sense he's another foil to Peter). And like other rogues he's a heartless bastard who cares very little about anyone and will stop at nearly nothing to have his way.

You could argue he's not a very personal foe, but then again I never thought all foes should get things personal with the hero -after all, if "it's personal" with all of them, it's personal with none.

But aren't all of Peter's foes ruthless and selfish, Vulture having those same qualities doesn't really doesn't make him a unique foil for Peter, does it?

Ruthlessness and greed are two of the most basic traits you can give a villain, a villain to be unique needs more then that.

His age is the only really the thing that makes him stand, but just saying Vulture is a good foil is kinda lazy, its not interesting in of itself unless you develop it. It be interesting to see Toomes as an idealistic young man who studied science and had his idealism crushed by circumstances, the last being his partner trying to rip him off.

Vulture doesn't need to be personal foe to Peter to be compelling, but he does need more character development to be interesting. Give him a detailed 6 issue character building arc to himself and see if he can sustain such a story.

[SuperiorIronman]

I think I understand what the OP is saying. Vulture is pretty much the Vulture in that he feels he needs the excitement and to regain some sense of youth but really who is Adrian Toomes beyond the alter ego? He shares the same qualities of most of Spider-man's rogues in that he is selfish, greedy, and beyond regaining his youth he doesn't have much to him beyond the Vulture. He simply became a villain one day and kept going with it. I guess I can understand that he feels the need to get that excitement and degree of respect but there is this huge lack of development concerning Adrian pre-Vulture. It's there but not nearly as much as a lot of his fellow rogues which to me seems where the OP is coming from, who is Adrian Toomes pre-Vulture in comparison to where he is now?

This is likely a problem of where we first met him but his arc is incomplete in that we simply didn't see his life prior to this. It's also probably not that interesting considering the flight harness comes so late into his life but that still doesn't excuse how little we know of Adrian prior (I swear somebody is going to post a thousand scans of his backstory).
Concerning the MCU as in the first post they will probably put all of the major elements of Adrian into his MCU counterpart. He'll have backstory but the focus likely will be on his criminal career as that's the most important if only to make it easier to make him an antagonist and to give him a more definable character trait as he shares a lot from a number of other rogues.