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  1. #16
    I am BLACK GUY dreyga2000's Avatar
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    I've been reading Carol's ongoing since 2006. I can't tell you that beyond a doubt she is a GREAT heroine. Bendis just assassinated her character in Civil War II.

    Carol does have fan base, the Carol Corps. SO many readers have already accepted her as a good hero. She's been able to carry a title for 50 plus issues back in the days before everything was constantly rebooted. And she has been in consistent print since 2012. As right now she is listed as Marvel best selling Graphic Novel on Amazon.


    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Could anyone recommend a good Captain Marvel story to get into the character? I’m assuming one of the more recent series’, something with a beginning middle and end that can sum up the character?
    Her stories are pretty good, IMO she has only had one really bad run with Stohl save for Life of Captain Marvel that was good. Brian Reed's stuff was plagued by nonstop cross-overs but still very enjoyable. Kelly Sue Deconnick gave the character new life by solidifying her personality and generating her own cult following.

    Rise of Alpha Flight- A Carol Danvers Must read IMO
    Higher, Further, Faster
    In Pursuit of Flight
    Down
    Best of the Best
    Ms. Marvel: Civil War
    Operation: Lighting Storm
    Monster Smasher
    War of the Marvels
    Ascension
    Captain Marvel: Civil War II I know what you are thinking but this actually shows the motivation behind her actions in Civil War. Good Read though art is uneven. makes Carol's choice make sense in context.
    Life of Captain Marvel

  2. #17
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    I've been reading Carol's ongoing since 2006. I can't tell you that beyond a doubt she is a GREAT heroine. Bendis just assassinated her character in Civil War II.

    Carol does have fan base, the Carol Corps. SO many readers have already accepted her as a good hero. She's been able to carry a title for 50 plus issues back in the days before everything was constantly rebooted. And she has been in consistent print since 2012. As right now she is listed as Marvel best selling Graphic Novel on Amazon.




    Her stories are pretty good, IMO she has only had one really bad run with Stohl save for Life of Captain Marvel that was good. Brian Reed's stuff was plagued by nonstop cross-overs but still very enjoyable. Kelly Sue Deconnick gave the character new life by solidifying her personality and generating her own cult following.

    Rise of Alpha Flight- A Carol Danvers Must read IMO
    Higher, Further, Faster
    In Pursuit of Flight
    Down
    Best of the Best
    Ms. Marvel: Civil War
    Operation: Lighting Storm
    Monster Smasher
    War of the Marvels
    Ascension
    Captain Marvel: Civil War II I know what you are thinking but this actually shows the motivation behind her actions in Civil War. Good Read though art is uneven. makes Carol's choice make sense in context.
    Life of Captain Marvel
    Even in Civil War 2, Carols stance isn't really THAT bad if you read her solo book. Similar to the first Civil War, if you read the tie-ins the participants in the story actually seem a lot saner than they do in the main title alone.

  3. #18
    I am BLACK GUY dreyga2000's Avatar
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    Also Alison Greene, the woman that Carol controversially arrested was actually a terrorist and was planning cause an incident similar to the Stamford tragedy triggered by the New Warriors to rip the superhero community apart, by targeting the Champions. But for whatever reason Bendis decided no t to reveal that in the main Civil War II Title.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    She doesn't like killing civilians, she just doesn't hate it.

    Depends on the writer. This was relatively early on in her career where she was struggling with the kree side of herself. When the skrull came around she got completely bloodlusted



    Claremont was working with how her kree side made her very violent with no regard for life (civilans or the enemy) so as long as she finished off her opponent



    Eventually these two sides of her got blended. She hates killing/severely harming civilians , but deep down she still does enjoy killing her enemies even if she feels immensely guitly about feeling that way (considers herself bad for killing but weak for not killing her enemies), unless it's in times of war or if great civilian life is in danger where the guilt doesnt come up (explored by reed and busiek)
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 02-12-2019 at 02:04 PM.

  5. #20
    I am BLACK GUY dreyga2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    While "great" is subjective I think greatness as a comic book character will arrive when Marvel isn't afraid to portray her as the deeply flawed person she is.
    This confuses me. In which story of hers is she not depicted as deeply flawed? I struggle to think of one. Her arrogance, stubbornness, aggressiveness, and impatience are practically her defining traits and they are in display in every story about her.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    Also Alison Greene, the woman that Carol controversially arrested was actually a terrorist and was planning cause an incident similar to the Stamford tragedy triggered by the New Warriors to rip the superhero community apart, by targeting the Champions. But for whatever reason Bendis decided no t to reveal that in the main Civil War II Title.
    alison greene was radicalized by the arrest, and didn't have those plans prior to getting targeted by ulysses' vision.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    This confuses me. In which story of hers is she not depicted as deeply flawed? I struggle to think of one. Her arrogance, stubbornness, aggressiveness, and impatience are practically her defining traits and they are in display in every story about her.
    I feel that after Reed's run these qualities were downplayed to play up the idea of her being a widely admired hero. But I admit that this is also subjective, since I'm not claiming these flaws are gone, just that they're downplayed or made to seem basically good (like a TV cop who is arrogant and impatient but "gets the job done").

    I'll also admit that my memory may be fusing together the comic runs with the way they were promoted, and that when I read them again I might find I think differently.

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Carol's already a pretty great hero. What the OP seems to be talking about is profile.

    And that's something that takes time and investment. Involvement in video games, movies, tv shows, cartoons, merchandise......and we're there. She's been in all the Marvel games that I know about, she's in several cartoons, the movie hits in less than a month, with a second appearance in Endgame right after that. And on the comic end of it, it takes time and quality stories. The last couple years with Stohl weren't great but otherwise Carol's book has been (more or less) well received since Reed, with reliable and consistent sales and (until Stohl) great digital numbers. A lot of people have resisted the Carol push because it's something Marvel decided, not the fans. We arent the ones who said "gimme more Carol!" Marvel decided to give us more Carol whether we wanted it or not. But despite the friction there, no one questions Carol being on a team of Avengers where only the very best biggest names get membership, no one complains about her having a book when there's other characters who're "more deserving" or whatever. I think fans are starting to accept that Carol's a big deal now, whether they like her or not. Just as people accept Batman or Superman as a big deal, but might not like the character/s.

    I dont know if Marvel's push has been as successful as they wanted it to be or if it'll stick long-term. And in the grand scheme of things the push hasn't been going for that long (less than a decade, which in comic book time is an eye-blink). But she's definitely been positioned for greatness. All that is left now is to wait and see if audiences get down with it.
    Last edited by Ascended; 02-12-2019 at 02:44 PM.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  9. #24
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    Also Alison Greene, the woman that Carol controversially arrested was actually a terrorist and was planning cause an incident similar to the Stamford tragedy triggered by the New Warriors to rip the superhero community apart, by targeting the Champions. But for whatever reason Bendis decided no t to reveal that in the main Civil War II Title.
    To be fair, most things were in other books. Character depth, exploration of ideas, examination of what makes what they're doing good or bad, reactions, fallouts... none of that was in the event.

    It's kind of why Civil War 2: Dream Drop Distance is a load of crap... beyond it just being a tool to launch new projects and story arcs with.



    As for Carol, I like her but pretty much all of her recent series are just mediocre nothing to crap. Even Life of Captain Marvel, this recent storyline was garbage as well because it felt more like a tool just retcon everything, kill her mom off after a huge relevation for no good damn reason, and accidentally say that Carol is more genetically inclined to be a hero and interested in space than naturally wanting to do it.

    If you want something decent to best show Carol, you're best really Kelly Sue's work and even then, I found most of it forgettable (not helped by rotating artists whose skill greatly ranged in quality).

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    alison greene was radicalized by the arrest, and didn't have those plans prior to getting targeted by ulysses' vision.
    If getting arrested(well she didn't even went to jail, just got interrogated by the police) for a few hours it's enough to make her a full on sociopathic terrorist... I'd say she's one of the cases where maybe locking her up before she had the chance to do anything was the best choice, as immoral as that sounds lol.

  11. #26
    Incredible Member macattack's Avatar
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    If Marvel wants to make Carol their Superman, here's the thing. Stop telling us she's a messianic hero of our times and instead show us (the trailers for her solo movie are making a big mistake with this as well).

    She needs to show the compassion, strength, and resolution of Superman. She needs to love, she needs to be strong, she needs to cry, she needs to smile. She needs to be human despite her alien genetics, Carol Danvers has to be to her identity what being Clark Kent has to be for Superman. Not that Carol needs to hide her identity from the world but her human side needs to come out. She needs to keep her flaws but not let them overwhelm or rule her.

    She needs to stop flying off into the galaxy or deep space and show that her primary concern is for the people of Earth, for the ordinary person, not just for whatever her allies happen to be. And she needs to stop stabbing people in the back just for disagreeing with her or suggesting a plan of action she is personally against.

    And, finally, she needs to be paired up with a creator who can give her a long run showing these things and make her into that hero by showing us this instead of telling.

    Then, and only then, can Carol become great.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I'm not saying Carol is wrong here, but it's part of her character and her background that she doesn't have that Captain America-style "everyone gets saved or no one" attitude. She's a warrior and the mission comes first even if some innocent people die.

    What I was trying and failing to get at, jokingly, is that her attitude is in some ways closer to Wolverine than a more conventional superhero like Cap or Superman, and that's what I find interesting about her.
    This, I like that she isn't perfect, that she holds a grudge and isn't always likable.

  13. #28
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    I honestly feel that there is massive untapped potential for the character that has still not been explored in terms of both fleshing out characterization and powers.

    Characterization wise:

    Her kree DNA which influences her personality and makes her more violent, aggressive, maybe even more authoritarian etc (aside from her personal flaws), how her various memory issues influence the character's personality by taking away formative aspects and returning them to contrast how someone is shaped by their experiences, her struggle with being more authoritarian in the name of safety (I know such actions hurt her, and they could go with a disillusionment angle---maybe an ACAB angle---Like how she's left homeland security because she felt they were bogged down by establishment and paperwork and couldn't do enough good) and how in civil war she felt like they were going after good people instead of the bad), all the trauma she's suffered, her ambition, sense of duty. There's also a major impostor syndrome angle that existed in the character where she had all the defining features (discounting praise or thinking she never deserved it or she just got lucky, a desire to be the best or to be special, perfectionism, self sabotage that affects performance etc)

    All of these things can be tied together in a single narrative to flesh out the character. For example, in House of M carol had become the best of the best. Perhaps the main thing that didn't exist was rogue taking away not just her powers, but all the development she would've had in her formative years (loss of emotional connection). Like, she may have a predisposition to alcoholism but seeing her dad drink made her more guarded against it or given her the sense of consequence to falling to the bottle. But without her emotional connection she wouldn't be guarded to it. Basically explore temperament (innate traits of a person) vs character (traits a person develops over life experiences). This would also have a narrative to show how someone with a fuck ton of flaws that may have made them a villain, can under the right circumstances or with proper development and resources can become a worthy or great hero)

    Maybe have her head a super hero support group where people discuss their various short comings as a hero, or the strange types of trauma they've experienced, and how their powers can influence them in strange ways in the super hero life to help cope with things normal psychs etc can't help with. Like flesh out superhero psychology through her (and bring back moonstone as a villain)

    Power wise:

    Add cosmic awareness to her. Like proper cosmic awareness (ewing sort of explored that) or retcon her 7th sense as a proper cosmic awareness (this also can tie into her characterization where she's had the issue with making the wrong decision with the right intention and now maybe she can make the right call with it)

    Explore the fact that she may as well be a living nega-band (like she was able to do molecular manipulation early on in her career by changing her height and costume-Mar-vell took to like issue 57 to get there) and how she also converts mental/psionic energy to physical. And maybe her tapping into her kree personality makes her more powerful, but also has the result of making her more brutal and violent::: Similar to how Mar-vell got stronger by tapping into Rick Jones mental energy/personality. This would also help explain why rogue was stronger than carol was with her powers (rogue had more psyches to draw energy from) (though now carol is stronger post binary modifications)

    Explore the binary powers. I mean shit, she just taps into a white hole? She's binary, she should tap into both a white hole and a black hole, it's in her name. Not to mention how incredibly strange white holes and black holes are as phenomenons, and all they do with it is use it as a stronger energy form? She should way better powers to distinguish herself from the regular form. Maybe some gravimetric manipulation as an example.

    Maybe flat out give her negabands so her innate nega-band like abilities combined with proper negabands give her more control over stuff like energy and matter manipulation.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 02-12-2019 at 03:08 PM.

  14. #29
    trente-et-un/treize responsarbre's Avatar
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    Other people have gotten at the problem with some of the way Carol is being promoted more generally, but I would also say that the way Marvel is handling her place in the Marvel Universe is ill-considered.

    Civil War II was the turning point where Marvel stopped just saying that Carol is finally a big important A-list character (at least in terms of the internal superhero politics of the MU) and started acting like it, by giving her a leading role in the conflict. Unfortunately, they also made her the big, mean, authoritarian figure who was up against an opponent that was more popular to the general audience, and whose opponent ended up dead at the end of it. So, Iron Man:Civil War::Captain Marvel:Civil War II.

    A whole lot of people came out of Civil War soured on Iron Man (who already was a good bit more popular than Carol was) because he was perceived as the villain of the piece. BUT, Iron Man snapped back (in terms of audience perception) because they gave his character a lot of specific attention. He got one-shots where he basically cried over Steve's corpse, and he got a big storyline about the changed status quo after Civil War, and (most importantly of all) he was dragged through the literal mud and taken down to nothing in a critically acclaimed Dark Reign storyline by Matt Fraction. The things he did had an effect on himself, on the shared universe, and ultimately led to a really brutal (and engrossing) story where you got to see him fall from the very top to rock bottom, where he had to self-destruct to make things right again. Or to phrase it differently, the effects of Civil War were so damaging to fan perceptions of Tony that they had him delete his brain and memories of Civil War. And he needed all of that plus an uber-popular movie to get his standing to where it is now.

    Carol didn't get any of that. She hadn't had central roles in previous major storylines in a while (if at all, really). She didn't get a one-shot where she got to feel sad about Tony and recounted their friendship (that went to Stevil instead). There weren't any lasting consequences to the shared universe as a result of Civil War II, because none of Marvel's events actually do anything to the status quo anymore. Carol didn't get a Mighty Avengers team to put together or a secondary ongoing. She didn't have anything on the scale of Tony's storyline throughout the Initiative/Dark Reign era where you saw her truly struggle and have to suffer and toil to get her life back together. Things just went on.

    Basically, Marvel has a casual interest in boosting Carol's place in the shared universe, but I don't think they've actually given any specific thought to storytelling strategies to support that, and it shows.
    Last edited by responsarbre; 02-12-2019 at 04:07 PM.

  15. #30
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    If getting arrested(well she didn't even went to jail, just got interrogated by the police) for a few hours it's enough to make her a full on sociopathic terrorist... I'd say she's one of the cases where maybe locking her up before she had the chance to do anything was the best choice, as immoral as that sounds lol.
    When you see how they handled her arrest and interrogation...it's not really surprising that she would go on to hate Superheroes (even though they broke her out), but I think making her crazy after that was just an attempt by Bendis to make Carol feel or look better from one of the biggest controversial decisions she made during Civil War II (especially since that is what finally led to all the heroes fighting).

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