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  1. #1
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    Default Should female characters be allowed to screw up more?

    Female characters just aren't written as diversely as their male counterparts for the most part. They are either the all-perfect heroes, the sexy love interests, or the mother hen of the group. Those are ok, but they just don't have the same depth as the men. Now, there are a lot of female characters that do break out of the cycle, but the rest are still limited by the boundaries that are put on them. In some cases, they are not allowed to screw up as badly as the male characters do. And if they do, there is always some explanation for their actions that absolves them.

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/forget-stron...-fe-1832535932

  2. #2
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    Sure why not, it depends on HOW it's portrayed. I feel like there's this desire to almost, overcorrect for the question ways that female characters were often portrayed back in the day. And while that's understandable, wanting to try and make up for past wrongs and all that, it also leads to you going too far in the other direction and making characters less diverse and interesting.

    I'd argue the current Star Wars ST has that problem big time for example.

  3. #3
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnFillory View Post
    Female characters just aren't written as diversely as their male counterparts for the most part. They are either the all-perfect heroes, the sexy love interests, or the mother hen of the group. Those are ok, but they just don't have the same depth as the men. Now, there are a lot of female characters that do break out of the cycle, but the rest are still limited by the boundaries that are put on them. In some cases, they are not allowed to screw up as badly as the male characters do. And if they do, there is always some explanation for their actions that absolves them.

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/forget-stron...-fe-1832535932
    There is a tendency to Mary Sue female characters. From everything I have heard about the Captain Marvel movie it sounds like Carol Danvers is going to be the ultimate Mary Sue.

  4. #4
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    No more than there is to Gary Stu male characters. The difference often is that the male protagonists are punished, at least in terms of audience perception and reception, for appearing weak or anything less than powerful and dominant as "real men" should be, whereas female protagonists get punished for the reverse or inverse, if it looks like they're succeeding "too easily" or they "haven't struggled enough" to get to where they are. It's really about how gendered expectations have primed readers and viewers, particularly in the superhero/sci-fi/fantasy genres, to react differently to male characters and female characters, especially if they're in protagonist or otherwise primary/starring roles, which in a way is not so different from how men and women are treated and viewed in real life.
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  5. #5
    Incredible Member abulafia's Avatar
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    oh please!
    but as long as the force is female...
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  6. #6
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    I'm not sure this is an actual "problem." There's any number of female protagonists that are flawed or make mistakes across various forms of fiction. Just as there's any number of male protagonists that are great at everything. The real problem is weak writing. Whether the main character is supposed to a wish fulfillment character or more realistic, you've still have to find a way to make them compelling as characters in their own right.

  7. #7
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    There's also the problem with the bandwagon effect. A work that dedicates itself to breaking cliches unwittingly creates a whole new cliche.

  8. #8
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    Well, comics have their share of flawed female characters!
    Take Carol Danvers, Brash cocky ex alcoholic prone to impatience and self-doubt! Isn't she flawed enough? And this makes for an interesting character.
    Take Scarlet witch, frailties are an inherent part of the character.
    And I don't understand the comment on the "Mary Sue" aspect of Captain Marvel! From a trailer?!!!
    Just like the "she doesn't smile enough"! Why would she?!!!
    It's the story of a woman who reconnects with her human heritage after having lived for years in an emotionless alien society.
    It seems to me more like Captain Marvel bashing.

  9. #9
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    This is more of a recent thing. Characters like Jean Grey,Storm Rogue had major storylines in the X-Men and screwed up big time (mostly Rogue and Jean Grey lol). They had just as much depth as male characters. Wasp and the original Capt. Marvel Monica Rambeau led the Avengers and were also strong female characters.

    Ellen Ripley,Sarah Connor were also strong characters that showed growth. Yeah characters should have flaws but I don't think it's necessary for characters to screw up a lot to be interesting. Being overly complicated and screwing up a lot aren't really the qualities of a hero.

    Come to think of it I can't really think of many male hero chars who screw things up a lot. Except for in Star Wars lol.
    Last edited by CliffHanger2; 02-13-2019 at 07:32 AM.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Male characters screw up because usually that's part of their character. Han Solo screws up because of his cockiness, Arnold in True Lies screws up because he's insecure about his marriage, etc. And that's never criticized (nor should it be) because it's natural. But female characters should be allowed the same courtesy. What makes those screw-ups (or lack thereof) tokenizing is if they're forced, rather than a natural extension of who they are (this is also why I can't stand most generic romcoms -- highly capable woman suddenly trips and bumps her head so that the plot can develop isn't the same thing as a highly capable woman making a mistake because of her character or making the wrong choice; 30 Rock is great in showing the latter). Forcing them to make mistakes rather than getting themselves into situations where a mistake is probable is a problem, because then it's artificial.

    I'd echo Cliffhanger2's point above as well about Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor -- no one will ever consider them wacky or accident prone. On the contrary, they tried to do everything as best they can and they still suffered. Sarah's most visible mistake in T2 was trying to go after Dyson alone, and that's not a one-off joke or an impulse -- it's a mistake stemming from the very real and relatable calculated decision of trying to do what's best for her son, trying to make a better future, bearing the weight of responsibility (if it's the fate of the world, it's unimaginable), and protecting her child from the grim realities of what she deemed as necessary violence. That mistake comes from good intentions and her maternal side, which were naturally developed over two movies. Part of the hero's journey is overcoming those obstacles over the course of the movie.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnFillory View Post
    Female characters just aren't written as diversely as their male counterparts for the most part. They are either the all-perfect heroes, the sexy love interests, or the mother hen of the group. Those are ok, but they just don't have the same depth as the men. Now, there are a lot of female characters that do break out of the cycle, but the rest are still limited by the boundaries that are put on them. In some cases, they are not allowed to screw up as badly as the male characters do. And if they do, there is always some explanation for their actions that absolves them.

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/forget-stron...-fe-1832535932
    I find it hilarious that this is coming from io9 the very same site that played such a pivotal role in building the very atmosphere that they are against now. This is almost as hilarious as when The Mary Sue ran a positive piece on The Orville https://www.themarysue.com/liking-the-orville/. I guess those sites are seeing all that traffic going in the opposite direction and are slowly adjusting their views.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I find it hilarious that this is coming from io9 the very same site that played such a pivotal role in building the very atmosphere that they are against now. This is almost as hilarious as when The Mary Sue ran a positive piece on The Orville https://www.themarysue.com/liking-the-orville/. I guess those sites are seeing all that traffic going in the opposite direction and are slowly adjusting their views.
    I don't know, that seems awfully cynical because the things we talk about sociologically aren't clear cut, but a spectrum. Today's articles are going to differ from articles just 5 years ago because society keeps changing and evolving, and it can't change and evolve without taking into account what's happened in the past -- what was written 5 years ago is the groundwork for today, what's written today is the groundwork for tomorrow.

    We'll never get it right as a society, but that's not to say we take these things with skepticism and doubt. We'll never get it right because we'll keep thinking of more intricate and complex (and yes, intersectional) ways of improvement, so we always keep striving to do better than we did before. That philosophy is even built into the preamble of the Constitution -- not a perfect union, because we'll never get that right, but a more perfect union to indicate continual growth and enlightenment, rather than an end goal. The danger is resting on our laurels and patting ourselves on the back thinking it's done, when there's always going to be work to be done (the Good Place kind of summed it up perfectly this past season).
    Last edited by Cyke; 02-13-2019 at 12:38 PM.

  13. #13
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    Failure is bulit into the standard super-hero plot. The most common plot goes something like this: 1. the hero encounters the villain and is in some way defeated 2. the hero regroups, figures out what went wrong and what needs to be done to change the outcome 3. the hero and villain clash again but this time the hero triumphs in some way.

    So for this plot to work, the hero has to fail before he or she can triumph. I guess that, with many female heroes, the failure is external. It's not that she's wrong, but other people or forces go against her and prevent her from doing the thing she knows she has to do. So Ripley and Sarah Connor know what has to be done, but they can't do that because others won't listen to them and screw everything up. Still, on some level, they have failed and they need to figure out a different way around the problem.

    In WONDER WOMAN, Diana thinks she knows the answer and her main problem is getting people to go along with her plan. At each stage in her journey she has to convince people to follow her, but it turns out she's wrong, she doesn't see the picture so she doesn't have the real answer to the problem. She has to learn what is the true evil and then live with it.

  14. #14
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    Yeah I don't see the "Mary Sue" complaints about Carol from the trailers. Even in the trailers they imply some potential flaws on her part, and the Russo's have talked about how they liked the challenge of writer obstacles for a character that physical powerful to overcome, and they mentioned "mental/psychological" challenges specifically.

    Jessica Jones is "Mrs. Screw Up" and she's far more compelling because of it.

  15. #15
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    Yeah, I think any fictional character should be allowed to screw up, irregardless of gender. However, not every compelling or well-written character needs to be a screw-up in the conventional sense. I've also found that a lot of "female characters aren't allowed to screw up" arguments seem poorly reasoned out or have an ulterior motive. Case in point, to anyone who thinks the new Star Wars movies have perfect female characters who are not allowed to fail or screw up, all I can ask is: "What the frak movies were you watching?"
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