Underused Villains

[Michael Watkins]

Because Bendis made him into a one dimensional evil criminal, with very little in terms of redeeming values and we are supposed to think was cool because he commanded a large army of super villains (which made no sense, because a lot of the villains in the army would have been too arrogant or too insane to take his orders). Bendis was so obsessed with making him cool, he lost any sort of sort of relatability and it came as fake like the Hood was given something he had not earned yet. It's easier for him to be relatable if he just the low-level hood, not a crime lord with an army of villains at his command.

the dark reign era Hood mini was quite good. it showed just how stressful it was to be the leader of a group of villains. it showed much of Parker's family life, as well.

Sure, as long as you give Wrecker some more dimension, you can keep Bulldozer and Piledriver as rather one note. Although it may be interesting if the Crew actively betrays Wrecker or something. Maybe Thunderball should leave the team permanently and strike out on his own, after trying to betray, mix up the status quo a bit with them.

They just attempted that with Thunderball when he joined the Illuminati. he had a girlfriend and new ambition. did you purchase the Illuminati book? i did.

But I think for this work, Wrecker needs a dimension beyond just greed, tell me something about him besides ''he's greedy'' because we have established that already. Maybe humanize him, give him a girlfriend or do more with his mom mentioned in the back story, show him more as a human being then some one-note bad guy. Tell me if he has any moral limits or not.

most villains are greedy. that's what makes them villains. the conflict is them wanting more than they are entitled to. it's the same for Dr. Doom. he thinks that he is entitled to rule the world. he has simply spun it in his own mind that his desire is justified by him being smart. he only seems like he has moral limits because he has power. when you strip him down (and we've seen it), he'd kill a child to accomplish his goals. that's what makes him a villain.

If you want move away from the ''Wrecking Crew as a punching bag type stories'' you need to kinda change things up with them.

they beat the crap out of Hawkeye and held their own during the Lion of Avalon Avengers arc. they also did quite well against Alpha Flight. they are used because they are physically formidable. if they are punching bags, so is Spider-man. bank robbing villains are needed. villains acting as muscle are needed. otherwise,

I think the problem with Red Ghost is simple, he is not a well-defined character, ''he is a super villain because he is a communist, he is a communist because he is a super villain''. His whole motive is just circular.

What is his goal? Is he an actual real Marxist or he was just opportunist who tried to climb the ladder in the USSR government?

he was murdered by Hydra-Cap.

Also Wizard never really impressed me as a villain, you can keep him as an evil scum bag, but have him up his game, how many times can he try to pull that Frightful Four trick before he realizes it's not working.

but you already know that it's only one of Wizard's hobbies. A.I.M came to him to lead a splinter cell. he's part of the Intelligencia. and he has a fan club that meets virtually. you might as well be criticizing the heroes for not killing their villains. afterall, beating them up and throwing them into prison is a trick that hasn't worked. like all villains, he is working under the restriction of good always prevails. but i'm still of the opinion that the key is to dispose of Dr.Doom. that would allow the other villains to level up.

[The Overlord]

the dark reign era Hood mini was quite good. it showed just how stressful it was to be the leader of a group of villains. it showed much of Parker's family life, as well.

I read it, it was good, but it was easy to ignore and Bendis just wrote him as a generic evil villain, people will know more of his exploits in New Avengers and this mini will not be as well read.

They just attempted that with Thunderball when he joined the Illuminati. he had a girlfriend and new ambition. did you purchase the Illuminati book? I did.

I will put it on the list, there is only so much money to go around, but the big question is will it stick, will they change this dynamic from now on or just forget about this in a year.

most villains are greedy. that's what makes them villains. the conflict is them wanting more than they are entitled to. it's the same for Dr. Doom. he thinks that he is entitled to rule the world. he has simply spun it in his own mind that his desire is justified by him being smart. he only seems like he has moral limits because he has power. when you strip him down (and we've seen it), he'd kill a child to accomplish his goals. that's what makes him a villain.



they beat the crap out of Hawkeye and held their own during the Lion of Avalon Avengers arc. they also did quite well against Alpha Flight. they are used because they are physically formidable. if they are punching bags, so is Spider-man. bank robbing villains are needed. villains acting as muscle are needed. otherwise,

Here's the thing, ''greedy banking robbing thug villain'' is not a character, its an archetype and an archetype that is repeated over and over again with this genre, that some villains seem to have the exact same personality, just different gimmicks. This may be the most stock villain type in comics.

There is nothing wrong with archetypes, that's fine, not every character has to a completely fleshed out characters, but if people want more then what Wrecking Crew is providing now, you would have to write them as characters, not archetypes, otherwise people should be mostly happy with their status quo, there is not much you can do with archetypical stupid thugs beyond having them work for bigger bad guys or be the opening threat to provide an action scene before the real story happens. So should they be archetypes or characters? To me, either is fine, but if you want them to remain archetypes, you cannot really complain about their status quo.

Are there aspects of Doom that are archetypical, but I think stories like the one where he fought with Dr. Strange to save his mother from Hell or fought to save the FF from Overmind or retook Latveria from the someone who promised reforms, but became a worst tyrant then Doom, stories like that make him a character, how often have the Wrecking Crew gotten a character spotlight story?

he was murdered by Hydra-Cap.

So what? Purple Man was killed off by Namor in the 80s and he was brought back. Owl was sucked into Hell and he came back, Marvel does this all the time.

Really I was addressing another poster who wanted Red Ghost to be a bigger deal, so at this point, you are interjecting into a topic I was having with another poster, that guy brought up Red Ghost, not me. Do you have a good reason why Red Ghost should stay dead and not be brought back? I understand wanting dead to be dead, but you have to admit Marvel does this all the time. Besides was this a respectful death for the character or Cap killing a B-list villain for ''shock value''?

To me Red Ghost can stay dead, its not the end of the world, but if they brought him back that would be fine too, but if they brought him back, it may be nice to do something new with him, otherwise maybe he should stay dead.

To me there is some interesting stuff you can do with Red Ghost, due to his origins as outdated Cold War Propaganda villain who is now a relic, but it would be a risk, leaving him dead and dismissing as another lame villain killed off for shock value or bringing him back as a generic mad scientist is the safe route.

but you already know that it's only one of Wizard's hobbies. A.I.M came to him to lead a splinter cell. he's part of the Intelligencia. and he has a fan club that meets virtually. you might as well be criticizing the heroes for not killing their villains. afterall, beating them up and throwing them into prison is a trick that hasn't worked. like all villains, he is working under the restriction of good always prevails. but i'm still of the opinion that the key is to dispose of Dr.Doom. that would allow the other villains to level up.

Well, they made Doom more heroic lately, rather than killing Doom off, keep him from being a villain and have others try to fill the vacuum.

You have to admit they have gone to the Frightful Four well a lot with the Wizard, so much so that's it was what he was known for.

I do think Wizard needs a better motive then being jealous of Reed Richards, which seems like a lame version of Doom's motive or he became a super villain due to boredom or he is jealous of the FF's fame. None of that is very interesting, IMO, its pretty stock and tells me nothing about the character besides he is a jerk and I would argue Wizard often falls into the realm of archetype rather than character. That mental break down story had promise but went nowhere, that's why Bendis thought he could make the Wizard into one of the Hood's goons, the guy is as much of an archetype as the bank robbing villains are.

Most of his stories involve him trying to defeat FF due to his petty motives, so he has no redeeming values as character, but his aims are small and generic, defeat the heroes and use the same lame plan over and over again, that lacks a real sense of menace, he is too evil to be sympathetic, but too generic to be a truly evil that he is compelling due to how vile he is and how much the audience wants to see him, like Red Skull. To me there is no reason to care about the character, he motives are not menacing enough to make him scary and he has no real redeeming qualities, he is just a jerk and nothing else and that's not interesting.

[your_name_here]

Where’s Dormammu these days?

[The Overlord]

Sorry for being verbose in some of the previous posts, I know walls of text can be dull.

What I am trying to say with my previous arguments, is you if want a villain to get more use, you have to give him or her more interesting and new stories, rather then rehashing the same old tale from 1967. Bendis put Purple Man on the map with his nightmarish reimaging, that did take elements from the past, Geoff Johns put Captain Cold on the map by giving him more of a friendly rivalry with Flash and defined code of honor and Doom gets used often because, despite you saying otherwise, is written as a complex villain. Ditto with Magneto, a one-note bad guy till Claremont reimagined him. Bringing characters back just to tell the same old stale story again, is pretty lame and only works with villains who are only supposed to henchman or a warm up to the main story (like the way the Wrecking Crew are now) or comic relief villains who only are around for a couple of pages or one issue before being defeated (like White Rabbit).

[Michael Watkins]

You have to admit they have gone to the Frightful Four well a lot with the Wizard, so much so that's it was what he was known for.

when was the last time? i seem to remember Mad Thinker introducing his version. but the last i remember of Wizard's frightful four was them intervening to aid the Fantastic Four. Wizard was wearing green for some reason. it was several years ago. inbetween then, Wizard created some impromptu frightful four with the Carnage symbiote as a member. they were quite dangerous. and then it was mainly the Intelligencia or the Hood's army.

I do think Wizard needs a better motive then being jealous of Reed Richards, which seems like a lame version of Doom's motive or he became a super villain due to boredom or he is jealous of the FF's fame.

i'd say that it's Doom who has the weaker motivation. why is Reed in his orbit? Wizard was a successful man before the Four showed up. they stole his thunder. and he hasn't been able to reclaim that acclaim. compare that to Doom torturing Reed's family for...what? Reed put Doom in his will and testament. he bailed his rear out at the end of Secret Wars and fixed his face. he's been nothing but fair to the guy. anyways, the FF also took Wizard's "child" Bentley. there's a motive to go after them.

Most of his stories involve him trying to defeat FF due to his petty motives, so he has no redeeming values as character.

i started a thread for people to revamp villains. i posted my ideas for Wizard. so what's your idea?

[Michael Watkins]

Sorry for being verbose in some of the previous posts, I know walls of text can be dull.

What I am trying to say with my previous arguments, is you if want a villain to get more use, you have to give him or her more interesting and new stories, rather then rehashing the same old tale from 1967. Bendis put Purple Man on the map with his nightmarish reimaging, that did take elements from the past, Geoff Johns put Captain Cold on the map by giving him more of a friendly rivalry with Flash and defined code of honor and Doom gets used often because, despite you saying otherwise, is written as a complex villain. Ditto with Magneto, a one-note bad guy till Claremont reimagined him. Bringing characters back just to tell the same old stale story again, is pretty lame and only works with villains who are only supposed to henchman or a warm up to the main story (like the way the Wrecking Crew are now) or comic relief villains who only are around for a couple of pages or one issue before being defeated (like White Rabbit).

it's all down to your perspective. i say that he ruined Purple Man. the character/imitation hannibal lecter is now tied to Jessica Jones; obsessed with her. so what story is left to tell? i'd say them introducing the Purple Children was more creative. show me a popular villain. i'll show you that writers rehash and rehash the same story with them. everything new is old. Magneto's my favorite villain. he's still doing the same thing he was in the 80s. Doom's still speaking in 3rd person and stealing power from cosmic beings only to lose it. his turn as a hero was a direct rip off of Magneto's turn. the only one breaking the mold is Otto Octavius. but that soon will devolve into pattern. instead of worrying about changing these characters into meaner deadlier deeper versions of themselves, aim lower. just give them a win every once in awhile. give them a new costume. switch up their "hero galleries." that's more sustainable than that captain cold stuff. those characters get rebooted constantly.

[Michael Watkins]

Where’s Dormammu these days?

hard to say. he might be the one who jacked up Doom's face (using the Hood's form). or that could have been Mephisto. i don't know that it was said outright.

[The Overlord]

it's all down to your perspective. i say that he ruined Purple Man. the character/imitation hannibal lecter is now tied to Jessica Jones; obsessed with her. so what story is left to tell? i'd say them introducing the Purple Children was more creative. show me a popular villain. i'll show you that writers rehash and rehash the same story with them. everything new is old. Magneto's my favorite villain. he's still doing the same thing he was in the 80s. Doom's still speaking in 3rd person and stealing power from cosmic beings only to lose it. his turn as a hero was a direct rip off of Magneto's turn. the only one breaking the mold is Otto Octavius. but that soon will devolve into pattern. instead of worrying about changing these characters into meaner deadlier deeper versions of themselves, aim lower. just give them a win every once in awhile. give them a new costume. switch up their "hero galleries." that's more sustainable than that captain cold stuff. those characters get rebooted constantly.

Really, then why does Cold remain a popular villain? Just because you do not like the character, does not mean he is not popular or that he does not work as a character.

They try to make Trapster cool by defeating Spidey now and again, but so what? It does not change the fact that he probably could be making real money if he had tried to patent his glue, rather then use it to become a D-list super villain. There was a short story from a prose novel from the 90s where Trapster tried to reform and do just that and failed due to Wizard's inference, he did not succeed in reforming, why do that in the comics? Either give him a good initial reason for being a villain or give him a good reason to remain, because it seems super easy to fake identity for yourself in the MU, a ton of villains has done it. At least the dumb thug villains have a reason to remain that way after getting their powers, Trapster gets abused as a punching bag all the time (Ghost Rider subjected him to the penance stare, constantly beaten by heroes, defeated by the FF's security system, almost killed by the Wizard and the Shocker, etc).

I think people disagree with you about Jessica Jones, look at how the first season of the Jessica Jones was received. Plus there is nothing in what Bendis did that contradicts what Waid did with him in Daredevil, to me its different aspects of the same character and what big thing was Purple man doing before Bendis ''ruined'' him? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Look at the Marvel version of the Scarecrow, he started off as a generic villain, became a creepy serial killer back in the 90s and now he is back to generic villainy, I do not think that's progress now.

You do not need to revamp Magneto again, because the first revamp Magneto got was perfect, we did not need to rework it, but are you going to tell me Wizard is even a fraction as compelling as Magneto? Magneto lost his family in a genocide and saw that mutants may suffer a similar fate, while Wizard woke up one morning and said ''I am going to be a super villain today and kidnap the Human Torch, because.....Mwa, ha, ha, ha!''

Didn't you post that thread months ago, you have to link it for me to reread it.

Here is my problem with Wizard, what was his reason for a being a super villain in the first place, its like he woke up one morning and just decided to be a super villain who kidnaps the Human Torch for fun, even though he would have been far more dangerous if he kept his villainy subtle, kept up appearances as an upstanding citizen and amassed a ton of power in civil society, instead he threw all of that away, for no reason. Yeah stuff with the clone is kinda interesting, but that's something came later, it does not answer, why did he decide to throw his comfy life away to become a public super villain? If he is a reoccurring Big bad who has his own story arcs, if you have to give him a good reason for being a public super villain, beyond ''the FF stole his thunder'', because he could have fought subtly, be like their Lex Luthor, instead of throwing a lot of potential weapons against the FF (like a good public standing) for no reason? The Wizard can never get his thunder back because he threw away any chance of being beloved after risking everything due to boredom, the only thing left is infamy and that would involve being more vicious then he is now. That is the break down is such a waste, that could have told us something new about his psyche, instead its just throwing it away with no payoff. Why did he keep mentioning God during his breakdown, what was that about?

Does your revamp of Wizard gave him a better motive for becoming a supervillain, other then woke up one morning and decided to ruin his own life because he was bored. For a super genius, surely he would realize that kidnapping the Human Torch would make him a public criminal? How is he supposed to get his thunder back and be a beloved figure, if he is now a criminal who attacked some of the most popular heroes in the US, for no good reason? Like I said unless he is willing to up game from fame to infamy, he can never his thunder back, his whole mission was self-sabotaged from the beginning. Would giving little more info into why the Wizard is the way he is, really ruin him? Is the character so fragile, that even a little scrutiny will shatter him?

I think Wizard's first appearance puts the character at such a bad footing and really gave the character bad motives, that it kinda sabotaged the character from the get-go and its why I think he has no good reason for being a super villain. You mock Doom's motives, but he grew up in a screwed country that burned his mom as a witch and executed his dad, of course, he is screwed up, what's Wizard's excuse? Wizard is like if Elon Musk decided to throw away almost everything by kidnapping a really famous person and keeping that person as a pet, assuming no one would miss that person. That's the original sin with Wizard that no one has corrected, he has no reason for becoming a public super villain in the first place, he could have been one of the major power figures in the MU if he had decided to play it cool and not commit such a high profile and since his reasons for becoming a super villain in the first place, do not make sense, I do not respect the character, to the point I think he needs a revamp the way Claremont did with Magneto or just stop using him. Claremont totally revamped Magneto and gave him a back story that made sense, would it kill Wizard to get the same treatment. Wizard has poor impulse control, can we explore why he was able to maintain good standing as a citizen for so long, only to throw it away? That could be interesting. I am not asking for the moon, I could like this character if someone was willing to try harder with him.

The Kingpin is a better villain then Wizard, because he wasn't stupid enough to throw away his good standing as a public figure for a high profile crime on a whim, Wizard may be a better tech genius then Fisk, but Fisk was never stupid enough to throw away everything on a whim, Fisk knew the power good PR and good standing can bring, but Wizard threw all that away, for no good reason.

Wizard is such an undefined character, Bendis used him as one of the Hood's thugs and frankly I do not blame him, he is very much an archetype like the bank robbing thugs. Sure the clone stuff is not bad, but it's not enough, IMO.

[The Overlord]

Again I am not trying to be mean, I know everyone has their own favorite character, but at a certain point, you have to realize sometimes worked in the 60s, may not work now and sometimes you have to change things up to keep things interesting with some villains, revamping some M.Os or giving them a more defined back story.

[Michael Watkins]

Really, then why does Cold remain a popular villain?

no idea. how does Trump become President? why is Aquaman the most successful DC film? people like what they like. all i'm arguing with you about is that it's his depth that makes him popular. you used him and his status to besmirch various marvel villains. I posted some facts about the Wrecker; to show you that he's a character with a background, with family, and a reason for doing what he's doing. you simply weren't impressed. nothing wrong with that. but I can tell you that I enjoy most Wrecking Crew appearances and that I have zero interest in Captain Cold.

They try to make Trapster cool by defeating Spidey now and again, but so what? It does not change the fact that he probably could be making real money if he had tried to patent his glue, rather then use it to become a D-list super villain.

him defeating Spider-Man might make him cool to someone like you. it wouldn't impress me. there are other things that I like about Pete; outside of his win/loss record. and, the last time that you brought him up, I countered with a scene from the Hood's original series. Parker Robbins pre-Hood explained why he wanted to be costumed villain and gave some insight into why some of them continued to do it. they are seen by regular criminals as celebrities. women flock to them because their lifestyle is seen as dangerous/exciting. he's D-List to you. to people inside the Bar With No Name, he's their buddy Pete. they all trade b.s. stories about their superfights and embellish scores.

Here is my problem with Wizard, what was his reason for a being a super villain in the first place

malignant narcissism coupled with mechanical inventiveness. he adapted to a world where costumed violence equated to celebrity.

Does your revamp of Wizard gave him a better motive for becoming a supervillain, other then woke up one morning and decided to ruin his own life because he was bored.

yes. but i'll have to detail it later. i'm late.

The Kingpin is a better villain then Wizard, because he wasn't stupid enough to throw away his good standing as a public figure for a high profile crime on a whim,

yes. he threw away his good standing for pride. if he completely ignored Daredevil, he'd still be a wealthy man. if he simply avoided Hell's Kitchen, same deal. he let it get personal. and he wound up in prison.

Wizard is such an undefined character, Bendis used him as one of the Hood's thugs and frankly I do not blame him, he is very much an archetype like the bank robbing thugs. Sure the clone stuff is not bad, but it's not enough, IMO.

it's something that no other villain is doing. it's insight into the character. he wanted a family and to prove something about nature vs nurture. so he cloned himself. how is that less worthy of respect than a cold gun?

[From The Shadows]

I think I'd like these guys to make a comeback! The Hellfire Clubs London chapter.

[Michael Watkins]

I think I'd like these guys to make a comeback! The Hellfire Clubs London chapter.

They were in mockingbird's book, iirc.

[From The Shadows]

They were in mockingbird's book, iirc.

When was this? I haven't read anything with her since her book with Hawkeye.

[Huntsman Spider]

When was this? I haven't read anything with her since her book with Hawkeye.

Few years ago, first arc of the Mockingbird solo written by Chelsea Cain during the All-New, All-Different Marvel period. Lasted only eight issues.

[The Overlord]

no idea. how does Trump become President? why is Aquaman the most successful DC film? people like what they like. all i'm arguing with you about is that it's his depth that makes him popular. you used him and his status to besmirch various marvel villains. I posted some facts about the Wrecker; to show you that he's a character with a background, with family, and a reason for doing what he's doing. you simply weren't impressed. nothing wrong with that. but I can tell you that I enjoy most Wrecking Crew appearances and that I have zero interest in Captain Cold.

How many stories with Captain Cold have you read? Maybe I am using him as a yardstick because he is in the same niche as these other villains, but maybe, he has better stories to his name. Maybe that reason for the writers to try harder with these villains and give them stories that expand their character?

him defeating Spider-Man might make him cool to someone like you. it wouldn't impress me. there are other things that I like about Pete; outside of his win/loss record. and, the last time that you brought him up, I countered with a scene from the Hood's original series. Parker Robbins pre-Hood explained why he wanted to be costumed villain and gave some insight into why some of them continued to do it. they are seen by regular criminals as celebrities. women flock to them because their lifestyle is seen as dangerous/exciting. he's D-List to you. to people inside the Bar With No Name, he's their buddy Pete. they all trade b.s. stories about their superfights and embellish scores.

Considering other villains and heroes mock ''Paste-Pot Pete" all the time, how is he a celeb? Also all these villains have the same motive for being villains, that they all will become overnight celebs (which do not think works), isn't pretty boring to give the villains the exact same motive, like no one has another reason for being a villain, there is no villain that instead of becoming a celeb, that some villains are just the butt of jokes or akin to character actors are not that famous. Saying becoming a super villain makes you more famous then rock star, does not ring true, can you point to a story where this is true for Pete? Because it seems like everyone just makes fun of him. If Pete has such great friends in the super villain community, why did Shocker and Wizard, 2 villains he would have trusted, try to kill on 2 different occasions?

Also, you do not think he could get fame, money, and women if he patented his glue and made millions, wouldn't that be easier?

Would it be the end of the world, if they adapted that prose novel short story, where Trapster tried to reform and failed and that is the tragedy of the character, does telling a different story with the character really ruin him, does have to remain in amber since the mid-60s? Or does that ruin this shallow ''every villain is the same type of character who becomes a super villain to be a rock star and lets never give them any deeper motives''.

Again, this seems like creating archtypes rather then characters, all the villains have the same motive, there be a few diffferent quirks here and there, but ultimately they same, the same basic motives and personality, just with a different gimmick or costume.

malignant narcissism coupled with mechanical inventiveness. he adapted to a world where costumed violence equated to celebrity.

Except in our world, you can still be a narcissist celeb and still be lauded, you do not have to be a public criminal to do that.

Look at Elon Musk, he is one of the powerful people in the world and he is a fame-obsessed egomaniac who still has thousands of fans who swear he has plan to make the world a better place.

I am not sure Wizard has the same influence in the MU, as Musk does in our world, if Musk committed a public crime, he would get arrested and just be forgotten, no one care after a while. Wizard could have acted the same way and gained far more power and influence for himself, he can have ran a company that rivaled Stark's, he could have had Senators and Presidents in his pocket and still acted like a fame whore in public, instead he is a C-list villain that Joe Six Pack in MU Earth barely cares about.

yes. but i'll have to detail it later. i'm late.



yes. he threw away his good standing for pride. if he completely ignored Daredevil, he'd still be a wealthy man. if he simply avoided Hell's Kitchen, same deal. he let it get personal. and he wound up in prison.

Isn't Fisk mayor of NYC? Wouldn't that be a fairly big accomplishment?

Who is the more popular villain, Kingpin or Wizard, who has the better stories? Who would have more influence, someone who works behind the scenes or a loud, obnoxious super villain who is a public criminal and can be arrested at any time?

Also if you are going to say he took over a section of AIM, so what, MODOK ran all of AIM for a while, the various Scientist Supremes have ran AIM, how is Wizard so special?

it's something that no other villain is doing. it's insight into the character. he wanted a family and to prove something about nature vs nurture. so he cloned himself. how is that less worthy of respect than a cold gun?

Again, how many Captain Cold stories have you read?

The clone is somewhat interesting, but it came later, I was somewhat interested in the mental break down Wizard and when he started babbling about God all the time, what was the about, was he religious, was his parents religious? I do not know, because there is that stupid plot twist where he gets cured by the Carnage symbiote (that thing making people sane, seems to the be opposite of what it usually does) and it comes to nothing.

I am not asking for the moon, you have mainly just given me surface stuff and every time I ask to pull back a layer, you seem to say no. All you want is surface stuff with Wizard, fine, you can have then, I will still think he sucks, but maybe taking a risk and going deeper with the character, might make him better, not worse.