Underused Villains

[Michael Watkins]

This is sort of a cheap, because I'm naming a group rather than a villain but the first thing that popped in my head was the Intelligencia.

I think a tight knit group of super intelligence super villains is a pretty darn scary threat. It's a shame they sort of vanished.

did they? i thought that they were central to the plot of the last Monster-centric mini-event.

[arveg2]

Tyrant would like to say hi

...no actually, the hell with that, he's probably shouting at this thread right now

[Ptrvc]

I would say Xemnu the Living Hulk but the She-Hulk appearances really undercut the dude's menace, and more horrifying aspects.

If they could retcon those and subsequent appearances as some sort of clone or copy (which is within his power to do) I think Xemnu could be a real terror.

[Michael Watkins]

I would say Xemnu the Living Hulk but the She-Hulk appearances really undercut the dude's menace, and more horrifying aspects.

looking like a muppet really undercut the dude's menace, as well.

[XPac]

I would say Xemnu the Living Hulk but the She-Hulk appearances really undercut the dude's menace, and more horrifying aspects.

If they could retcon those and subsequent appearances as some sort of clone or copy (which is within his power to do) I think Xemnu could be a real terror.

Xemnu is fun. On ome hand he's very powerful and very dangerous. On the other, he lools lile someone Bugs Bunny should be throwing down with more than the Hulk. Still, I'm a fan. Hope he shows up again.

[The Overlord]

Yeah, totally. The Wrecker could be a good Marvel equivalent of how Captain Cold is written with the Rogues these days. Head of the blue collar bad guys.

But the thing is, there is more to Captain Cold then that, he has defined back story, he has interesting dynamic with the Flash, they would have him do things like avenge his sister's death or as leader of the Rogues, he would punish Rogues that did things he found immoral, but would often treat the Rogues as freinds as well.

If you do not give the Wrecking Crew more depth then ''greedy thugs'', then you do doom to be cannon fodder in the first couple of pages of story. Greedy thugs in of themselves are not interesting blue collar villains, that's standard M.O for 80% of the Street Level villains in the MU, you need to add more.

[MichaelC]

Yeah, they tried to make The Hood into Marvel's Captain Cold, but that went south somehow.

[scribbleMind]

Morpheus
Stained Glass Scarlet
The Orb (did ANYTHING come from his Original Sins "upgrade"
Penance
Blackout
Zodiac
Gorgon
Kro
Black Mariah
Crime Master

[Sutekh]

Some of these guys are around but just aren't used nearly as much as they should/could be:

Flag-Smasher
Blastaar
Diablo
Mr. Fear
Ulik
Red Ghost
Leader
Jester
Umar
U-Man
Baron Blood
Stegron
Attuma
Oddball
The Eye
Swarm
Basilisk
Mr. Hyde
Blackwing
Dr. Demonicus
Scarecrow

Several of these guys feel like they've never really gotten their due.

Blastaar has come close, but could go further, leading an invasion from the Negative Zone (through the portal in Four Freedoms Plaza, now the center of his kingdom on Earth, centered around a devastated New York City).

Attuma is another with potential armies, who never seems to get the gold. Namor has invaded the surface world, it seems, more than his 'villain.'

I always loved Diablo's mystical chops. And he's shown some insane potential. Turning an entire town into Hulks as a distraction? Yikes!

Both the Red Ghost and the Leader (along with the Wizard) *should* have gotten the 'evil genius mastermind' roles that went to comparative dullards like Norman Osborne and Otto Octavius. (Although Otto has at least had some brilliant stories come out of it!)

Umar has too often been 'Dormammu's sister,' and her own stories kind of subordinate to family politics. She's either supporting her brother, replacing her brother, or being replaced in turn by her daughter, but since Dormammu *always* comes back, and *always* ends up in charge again, she seriously needs to find her own 'Dark Dimension' to rule, rather than temporarily babysitting someone else's throne while he's away.

And the Basilisk. I wait and wait for the Omega Stone to turn into something to do with the Kree and Skrulls and their various cosmic schemes, and for him to get dragged into the Marvel Cosmic side of things, alongside Earth folk like Richard Ryder/Nova and Heather Douglas/Moondragon and Frankie Raye/Supernova. But no. Squandered potential!

[Ptrvc]

looking like a muppet really undercut the dude's menace, as well.

It actually worked really well in his first Defenders appearance when he had his on children's show.

Goofy and harmless looking until the camera focuses in on his eyes. And he starts mesmerizing the children to Pied Piper them away.

Xemnu is fun. On ome hand he's very powerful and very dangerous. On the other, he lools lile someone Bugs Bunny should be throwing down with more than the Hulk. Still, I'm a fan. Hope he shows up again.

You can definitely make him to nonthreatening appearing true, but I do like the Old School 1960s sci-fi Aesthetic going on.

I think a good artist can make that white hairball aesthetic a lot more unnerving then fifty skull-spike-roid-monsters.

[Kaijudo]

Xemnu is fun. On ome hand he's very powerful and very dangerous. On the other, he lools lile someone Bugs Bunny should be throwing down with more than the Hulk. Still, I'm a fan. Hope he shows up again.

Personally, if I had a crack as a GOTG-esque space team (if not GOTG themselves), I'd totally put Xemnu on there as the petulant "criminal forced to do good" type.

[Kaijudo]

But the thing is, there is more to Captain Cold then that, he has defined back story, he has interesting dynamic with the Flash, they would have him do things like avenge his sister's death or as leader of the Rogues, he would punish Rogues that did things he found immoral, but would often treat the Rogues as freinds as well.

If you do not give the Wrecking Crew more depth then ''greedy thugs'', then you do doom to be cannon fodder in the first couple of pages of story. Greedy thugs in of themselves are not interesting blue collar villains, that's standard M.O for 80% of the Street Level villains in the MU, you need to add more.

I didn't say as much, but in thinking of the Wrecker in the position I suggested, I was assuming it'd come with an greater fleshing out of the character, so he wasn't so one-note. Thunderball has been fleshed out pretty well, so it'd be an opportunity to examine why this guy, a genius-level scientist with strength equal to the Wrecker, always keeps coming back to him/the Crew despite always quitting (and why the Wrecker lets him back). As for Bulldozer and Piledriver, I think they work just being little more than dumb thugs.

[Michael Watkins]

Several of these guys feel like they've never really gotten their due.

Blastaar has come close, but could go further, leading an invasion from the Negative Zone (through the portal in Four Freedoms Plaza, now the center of his kingdom on Earth, centered around a devastated New York City).

Attuma is another with potential armies, who never seems to get the gold. Namor has invaded the surface world, it seems, more than his 'villain.'

I always loved Diablo's mystical chops. And he's shown some insane potential. Turning an entire town into Hulks as a distraction? Yikes!

Both the Red Ghost and the Leader (along with the Wizard) *should* have gotten the 'evil genius mastermind' roles that went to comparative dullards like Norman Osborne and Otto Octavius. (Although Otto has at least had some brilliant stories come out of it!)

Umar has too often been 'Dormammu's sister,' and her own stories kind of subordinate to family politics. She's either supporting her brother, replacing her brother, or being replaced in turn by her daughter, but since Dormammu *always* comes back, and *always* ends up in charge again, she seriously needs to find her own 'Dark Dimension' to rule, rather than temporarily babysitting someone else's throne while he's away.

And the Basilisk. I wait and wait for the Omega Stone to turn into something to do with the Kree and Skrulls and their various cosmic schemes, and for him to get dragged into the Marvel Cosmic side of things, alongside Earth folk like Richard Ryder/Nova and Heather Douglas/Moondragon and Frankie Raye/Supernova. But no. Squandered potential!

honestly, i'd rather a new character with connections to the kree side of things rip the stone out Basil's body and become the new Basilisk. then he or she could be whatever you want.

[Michael Watkins]

But the thing is, there is more to Captain Cold then that, he has defined back story, he has interesting dynamic with the Flash, they would have him do things like avenge his sister's death or as leader of the Rogues, he would punish Rogues that did things he found immoral, but would often treat the Rogues as freinds as well.

If you do not give the Wrecking Crew more depth then ''greedy thugs'', then you do doom to be cannon fodder in the first couple of pages of story. Greedy thugs in of themselves are not interesting blue collar villains, that's standard M.O for 80% of the Street Level villains in the MU, you need to add more.

we've met Wrecker's parents. we've seen how he handles challenges to his authority; perceived and real. and we've seen friendships within the Crew. at least two of the Crew have children who have been seen as well.

from the bio...
Burt Garthwaite was a construction worker who wielded a crowbar years before his son Dirk did. He was fired from one construction site after another due to his violent temper and drinking. A belligerent drunk, he repeatedly abused his wife and son. He was reported dead at one time which everyone believed[1], and he allowed them to continue believing it. When Captain Shelley Conklin comes to him to enlist his aid in stopping his son, he wants money for doing it. The Wrecker shows up and is about to attack him, when Code:Blue manages to hold him off for a few seconds, but Burt dies from a heart attack. Captain Conklin later comments to Marcus Stone about whether Burt died out of sheer spite, one last chance to beat his son.

Anne Garthwaite is the ex-wife of Burt Garthwaite, and mother of Dirk (aka "The Wrecker"). She was severely abused and beaten by her ex-husband. When her son Dirk was four years old, she was led to believe that Burt was dead. Dirk, over the years, sent her tens of thousands of dollars to try and help her, but she refused to cash any of the money orders because it was money taken from crimes. She died still loving her son, but hates what he did, blaming herself for working too hard while it was just her and her son, and not being there for him when he was growing up.

The relationship between The Wrecker and Thunderball has always been somewhat strained at times. Dr. Franklin believes that he's superior to The Wrecker because he's smarter than him, thus causing him to be resentful that the source and total reliance of his power lies with The Wrecker. Thunderball has attempted to usurp The Wrecker's power many times, only to be eventually thwarted. Once, The Wrecker easily crushed Thunderball's hand after he tried to steal his crowbar. Strangely, The Wrecker has always taken Thunderball back, because he considers Thunderball and the rest of The Wrecking Crew family

so what's so special about Captain Cold?

[The Overlord]

Yeah, they tried to make The Hood into Marvel's Captain Cold, but that went south somehow.

Because Bendis made him into a one dimensional evil criminal, with very little in terms of redeeming values and we are supposed to think was cool because he commanded a large army of super villains (which made no sense, because a lot of the villains in the army would have been too arrogant or too insane to take his orders). Bendis was so obsessed with making him cool, he lost any sort of sort of relatability and it came as fake like the Hood was given something he had not earned yet. It's easier for him to be relatable if he just the low-level hood, not a crime lord with an army of villains at his command.

we've met Wrecker's parents. we've seen how he handles challenges to his authority; perceived and real. and we've seen friendships within the Crew. at least two of the Crew have children who have been seen as well.

from the bio...
Burt Garthwaite was a construction worker who wielded a crowbar years before his son Dirk did. He was fired from one construction site after another due to his violent temper and drinking. A belligerent drunk, he repeatedly abused his wife and son. He was reported dead at one time which everyone believed[1], and he allowed them to continue believing it. When Captain Shelley Conklin comes to him to enlist his aid in stopping his son, he wants money for doing it. The Wrecker shows up and is about to attack him, when Code:Blue manages to hold him off for a few seconds, but Burt dies from a heart attack. Captain Conklin later comments to Marcus Stone about whether Burt died out of sheer spite, one last chance to beat his son.

Anne Garthwaite is the ex-wife of Burt Garthwaite, and mother of Dirk (aka "The Wrecker"). She was severely abused and beaten by her ex-husband. When her son Dirk was four years old, she was led to believe that Burt was dead. Dirk, over the years, sent her tens of thousands of dollars to try and help her, but she refused to cash any of the money orders because it was money taken from crimes. She died still loving her son, but hates what he did, blaming herself for working too hard while it was just her and her son, and not being there for him when he was growing up.

The relationship between The Wrecker and Thunderball has always been somewhat strained at times. Dr. Franklin believes that he's superior to The Wrecker because he's smarter than him, thus causing him to be resentful that the source and total reliance of his power lies with The Wrecker. Thunderball has attempted to usurp The Wrecker's power many times, only to be eventually thwarted. Once, The Wrecker easily crushed Thunderball's hand after he tried to steal his crowbar. Strangely, The Wrecker has always taken Thunderball back, because he considers Thunderball and the rest of The Wrecking Crew family

so what's so special about Captain Cold?

Cold does not get used as a throwaway villain and has a defined rivalry with his heroic counterpart, the Flash?

Here is a good question, has Wrecker been given a motive that is personal in a story, rather than just greed? Because they do that with Cold, they have him avenge the death of his sister or they have him avenge the death of Kid Flash or when a serial killer was trying to frame Cold by killing people with ice powers, Cold went out of his way to clear his name.

The typical ''abusive parents back story'' does not always work, unless you have it some pathos, like Cold, ran away from home and left his sister at that abusive house, which is why he felt protective of her later and why her death really weighed on her. In Rogues Revenge, some villains kidnap his dad to threaten him, which clearly does not work. Cold has the opportunity to kill him, could not quite do it and had Heat Wave do it instead. Has Wrecker's abusive childhood been given a pay off in a story in the present? Like maybe brring the mother back at this point, if she has not been mentioned in a while, it can easy to forget she existed. What if she was in danger or something like that?

Plus they give Cold a defined moral code that governs his conduct, does Wrecker have a moral code, if someone hired him to do a job that might involve the death of women and children, would he take it or would he would he say no?

If you want Wrecker to be the bigger deal, give him more character focused stuff, rather then yet another story where he tries to knock over an armored car and the Avengers stop him.

I didn't say as much, but in thinking of the Wrecker in the position I suggested, I was assuming it'd come with an greater fleshing out of the character, so he wasn't so one-note. Thunderball has been fleshed out pretty well, so it'd be an opportunity to examine why this guy, a genius-level scientist with strength equal to the Wrecker, always keeps coming back to him/the Crew despite always quitting (and why the Wrecker lets him back). As for Bulldozer and Piledriver, I think they work just being little more than dumb thugs.

Sure, as long as you give Wrecker some more dimension, you can keep Bulldozer and Piledriver as rather one note. Although it may be interesting if the Crew actively betrays Wrecker or something. Maybe Thunderball should leave the team permanently and strike out on his own, after trying to betray, mix up the status quo a bit with them.

But I think for this work, Wrecker needs a dimension beyond just greed, tell me something about him besides ''he's greedy'' because we have established that already. Maybe humanize him, give him a girlfriend or do more with his mom mentioned in the back story, show him more as a human being then some one-note bad guy. Tell me if he has any moral limits or not.

If you want move away from the ''Wrecking Crew as a punching bag type stories'' you need to kinda change things up with them.

Several of these guys feel like they've never really gotten their due.

Blastaar has come close, but could go further, leading an invasion from the Negative Zone (through the portal in Four Freedoms Plaza, now the center of his kingdom on Earth, centered around a devastated New York City).

Attuma is another with potential armies, who never seems to get the gold. Namor has invaded the surface world, it seems, more than his 'villain.'

I always loved Diablo's mystical chops. And he's shown some insane potential. Turning an entire town into Hulks as a distraction? Yikes!

Both the Red Ghost and the Leader (along with the Wizard) *should* have gotten the 'evil genius mastermind' roles that went to comparative dullards like Norman Osborne and Otto Octavius. (Although Otto has at least had some brilliant stories come out of it!)

Umar has too often been 'Dormammu's sister,' and her own stories kind of subordinate to family politics. She's either supporting her brother, replacing her brother, or being replaced in turn by her daughter, but since Dormammu *always* comes back, and *always* ends up in charge again, she seriously needs to find her own 'Dark Dimension' to rule, rather than temporarily babysitting someone else's throne while he's away.

And the Basilisk. I wait and wait for the Omega Stone to turn into something to do with the Kree and Skrulls and their various cosmic schemes, and for him to get dragged into the Marvel Cosmic side of things, alongside Earth folk like Richard Ryder/Nova and Heather Douglas/Moondragon and Frankie Raye/Supernova. But no. Squandered potential!

I think the problem with Red Ghost is simple, he is not a well-defined character, ''he is a super villain because he is a communist, he is a communist because he is a super villain''. His whole motive is just circular.

What is his goal? Is he an actual real Marxist or he was just opportunist who tried to climb the ladder in the USSR government?

The thing is the USSR fell back in 1991 and the writers never really updated him. I say either make him an Anarcho Marxist or make more involved with the modern Russian government or Russian mafia or both. If you want to argue that is step down from being a mad scientist in the ranks of Intelligentsia, I think grounding him a bit in today's political climate makes more unique then being another powerful, but generic mad scientist, he can still be a mad scientist, while still being more grounded in the real world in terms of motives.

Also Wizard never really impressed me as a villain, you can keep him as an evil scum bag, but have him up his game, how many times can he try to pull that Frightful Four trick before he realizes it's not working.