How important is it that Superman is the strongest one there is?

[DochaDocha]

A few things in those panels.

First, I think this was a direct response to when Loeb originally insinuated that Supergirl was stronger. A lot of people didn't like that (I sure as hell didn't), and so they crafted a response that would work within the constraints of what was explained earlier. That said, if this reveal was always intended to be the case, then more power to Loeb.

Second, I didn't pay much attention to it at first, but the part when Superman says "[his] parents," and then "not... Jor-El and Lara," that kind of goes back to what we've discussed in concurrent threads about how this particular era's Superman seemed to like to undercut his Kryptonian heritage.

And finally, I'm not sure why Superman wondered out loud if Kara was being powered by her ship's solar panels. I thought that when they first found the ship, they already came to the conclusion she was powered by them during her journey to Earth.

[stargazer01]

A few things in those panels.

First, I think this was a direct response to when Loeb originally insinuated that Supergirl was stronger. A lot of people didn't like that (I sure as hell didn't), and so they crafted a response that would work within the constraints of what was explained earlier. That said, if this reveal was always intended to be the case, then more power to Loeb.

Second, I didn't pay much attention to it at first, but the part when Superman says "[his] parents," and then "not... Jor-El and Lara," that kind of goes back to what we've discussed in concurrent threads about how this particular era's Superman seemed to like to undercut his Kryptonian heritage.

And finally, I'm not sure why Superman wondered out loud if Kara was being powered by her ship's solar panels. I thought that when they first found the ship, they already came to the conclusion she was powered by them during her journey to Earth.

Superman said 'maybe'. So it's not a sure thing.

Also, your parents are those who raise you, love you, and take care of you in every way, and those are without a doubt the Kents. It doesn't mean Jor-El and Lara don't mean anything, but they didn't raise him when he needed it the most.

[rpmaluki]

Superman said 'maybe'. So it's not a sure thing.

Also, your parents are those who raise you, love you, and take care of you in every way, and those are without a doubt the Kents. It doesn't mean Jor-El and Lara don't mean anything, but they didn't raise him when he needed it the most.

Them not raising him isn't for lack of wanting on their parts. I get what you're saying. He's bonded with the Kents but it seems odd for me to just think of the Kents as his (only-ish) parents because the Els never got a chance to raise him, especially when I know how much they loved him.

[Kuwagaton]

By that time he was both more powerful from his debut and more "Kryptonian." Undercutting his heritage wasn't supposed to be a frequent thing really.

[LordUltimus]

Which is why the general audience weren't bothered by the JL fight or let it negatively cloud their opinions on other characters, despite the fact that it upset internet nerds everywhere who are somehow surprised that Aquaman, Batman and Cyborg are not match for Superman. Wonder Woman is really the only one for whom there was room for debate.

Barely any of the general audience saw Justice League.

[DochaDocha]

Also, your parents are those who raise you, love you, and take care of you in every way, and those are without a doubt the Kents. It doesn't mean Jor-El and Lara don't mean anything, but they didn't raise him when he needed it the most.

I just thought the wording was weird, in how he goes out of his way to say "my parents" and "not... Jor-El and Lara." To me, it sounds kind of unnatural (like, for instance, calling your mom by her first name...) and seems to create a relative gap in importance between the his farm folks and his space folks.

Barely any of the general audience saw Justice League.

While the box office was a big disappointment, $229 M domestic isn't quite small, either. Even if you assumed an average movie ticket price of $10 (I'm taking $9 and marking it up), that's still over 20 million tickets sold.

[rpmaluki]

Barely any of the general audience saw Justice League.

Wasn't a fan of the movie but this isn't true. People watched, it just didn't make a great impression which hampered its boxoffice performance after that first weekend.

[LordUltimus]

My point is that Justice League didn't enter the public consciousness in the way that Man of Steel, BvS, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman did.

[DochaDocha]

My point is that Justice League didn't enter the public consciousness in the way that Man of Steel, BvS, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman did.

I'd say it did, but as the butt of jokes about underachievement.

[LordUltimus]

I'd say it did, but as the butt of jokes about underachievement.

And most of those jokes had nothing to do with the plot, characters, or story.

(The closest I remember is "Aquabro" jokes.)

[SiegePerilous02]

Barely any of the general audience saw Justice League.

And most of those jokes had nothing to do with the plot, characters, or story.

(The closest I remember is "Aquabro" jokes.)

But in this case, the "Superman was too overpowered in JL" complaints don't amount to anything more than nerds on the internet, and they are always upset about something. It really didn't have a negative impact on Superman or how others view the characters. The movie in general did damage, not power levels.

This isn't aimed at you BTW, just the general sentiment that "everyone got thrown under the bus for Superman in JL and this proves that him being overpowered doesn't work" that we see crop up online doesn't actually amount to much.

[LordUltimus]

But in this case, the "Superman was too overpowered in JL" complaints don't amount to anything more than nerds on the internet, and they are always upset about something. It really didn't have a negative impact on Superman or how others view the characters. The movie in general did damage, not power levels.

This isn't aimed at you BTW, just the general sentiment that "everyone got thrown under the bus for Superman in JL and this proves that him being overpowered doesn't work" that we see crop up online doesn't actually amount to much.

It also didn't help anything.

[DochaDocha]

It also didn't help anything.

Well, would we make the argument that if they made Superman weaker then more people would've watched and enjoyed the movie?

I appreciate the want to lower Superman's power levels in the 1980's. People like to use the expression "juggling planets" to describe how powerful Superman was at one point, and I'd say that level is probably overkill, but I don't think making him weaker as the way they did has had a prolonged effect of higher reader/viewer interest. We also happened to see his powers creep upward after his death. Was that because writers were nostalgic for old Supes? Was it a response to fans? Or was it just a need to keep up with the arms race of "my hero can beat your hero"? I can't say, but I think the sweet spot ended up being below Silver Age Supes, but greater than Byrne's output.

One story I like to repeat is that the first season of the JL cartoon was not very good, and that season's Superman was a weak joke. Season two and beyond were quality, and Superman was massively buffed. I don't think the upgrade to Supes and the bump in quality are at all coincidental.

[LordUltimus]

Well, would we make the argument that if they made Superman weaker then more people would've watched and enjoyed the movie?

Just pointing out that using it to prove anything is basically meaningless.

I appreciate the want to lower Superman's power levels in the 1980's. People like to use the expression "juggling planets" to describe how powerful Superman was at one point, and I'd say that level is probably overkill, but I don't think making him weaker as the way they did has had a prolonged effect of higher reader/viewer interest. We also happened to see his powers creep upward after his death. Was that because writers were nostalgic for old Supes? Was it a response to fans? Or was it just a need to keep up with the arms race of "my hero can beat your hero"? I can't say, but I think the sweet spot ended up being below Silver Age Supes, but greater than Byrne's output.

Well, that's not exactly saying much. It's like saying "the sweet spot is below an atom bomb but greater than a bulldozer" there's quite a gap between the two.

One story I like to repeat is that the first season of the JL cartoon was not very good, and that season's Superman was a weak joke. Season two and beyond were quality, and Superman was massively buffed. I don't think the upgrade to Supes and the bump in quality are at all coincidental.

Agree to disagree, the first season of the JL cartoon helped me get into DC in the first place.

[DochaDocha]

Well, that's not exactly saying much. It's like saying "the sweet spot is below an atom bomb but greater than a bulldozer" there's quite a gap between the two.

I tend to think Byrne's Superman power level is something like Oprah Winfrey wealthy, and Silver Age power level is like Jeff Bezos-before-the-divorce settlement rich, or Bill Gates if he didn't do all that philanthropy. In a vacuum, it's plenty powerful, but when you look at the very top end it seems more modest.