How important is it that Superman is the strongest one there is?

[Kuwagaton]

I guess you can break it down like this: does Wonder Woman have freeze breath? Does J'onn have heat vision? Does Captain Marvel know the ways of space? Can Lar Gand race the Flash? You can go on, but does he even need a gimmick? If every other comic was like Damage and they went on about some character being stronger than Superman, I'm not sure how that would affect his stories.

A bit conflicted on this. I don’t personally care about his power level myself, one of my favorite runs was the Morrison New 52 AC run and in that he was back to Golden Age power levels. But I also don’t like seeing other heroes regularly beat him up. I was never a fan of Kara being stronger than him. So I guess I’d say that I’m fine with him being in the upper echelon of heroes, and having villains out there that straight outclass him, but if the story is good enough I’m ok with a weaker Superman too.

There was some real heat when it was suggested that Kara was stronger. I don't see the problem if he's older and more experienced. But the Convergence story where he got jumped in the Phantom Zone did fail to make a point on why he's great despite his power level. Kara did all the heavy lifting and just paid lip service.

[kingaliencracker]

I don't need Superman to be the strongest.

I just need him to be the best, most inspirational, and most heroic.

[stargazer01]

For me what makes Superman/Clark a great superhero is that he actually cares for everybody. He has a strong moral compass and lots of compassion. If he didn't have all that, with all his power, he could conquer the world but he doesn't because he is not that kind of person. He's incorruptible. It's why those stories of Superman being mind-controlled are scary because with his power he could destroy the world. Justice League movie kind of did a bit of that and he was a force of nature. It's fascinating to think of what could happen if he wasn't a good person, etc.

[greatmetropolitan]

The most important thing for Clark is that he's the most decent, heroic and inspirational, the most good.

Having said that, I always view Clark as the ultimate limit breaker. He's the guy that's always got another gear when things get darkest. Just when you think he's given all he's got, he finds that extra to win the day. In a practical comic book story sense, you can say that he's someone who's always holding back and never letting out his full power, but ultimately it's more a metaphorical thing - good overcoming evil, light beating back the dark no matter how bad it gets. Clark is the embodiment of his own line, "You're much stronger than you think you are."

As for the day to day on the DC Earth though, Clark is basically the strongest person on the planet, and everyone knows it. Diana, Manhunter, they all know that if he just let it all out, there's no one quite as strong as Clark is.

[The_Lurk]

His point is been the strongest who in theory could do anything but does not because his moral codex is also the strongest.

Probably why a lot of industry "greed is good" ppl do not get him. His morals are more alien to them than everything else actually alien on Superman.

[DochaDocha]

It's part of the character's appeal.

[Killerbee911]

I think "the strongest" has been the worst development for Superman. Superman in my opinion is really a perseverance character. It is his will and ability to never give up that makes him Superman not powers,Yes he is a power fantasy as well but making him "the most" shifts the focus on his powers. And that is clearly evident because Superman skills as fighter and his intelligence get down played wayyyyy to much. When was last time you remember Superman outskill someone in fight you dodging,weaving,mixing up combos?(etc think Thanos vs Hulk), When was last time you remember Superman going nah I don't have to out punch this enemy let me get an invention,Let me combine my powers in a cool way or let me use a different clever tactic?

Superman does not have to be strongest for me because he is so good in so many areas, He is ultimate hero. I like a Superman who has to push to his limits and surpass it,You knock him down 10 times He gets up 11 times.

[DochaDocha]

I think "the strongest" has been the worst development for Superman. Superman in my opinion is really a perseverance character. It is his will and ability to never give up that makes him Superman not powers,Yes he is a power fantasy as well but making him "the most" shifts the focus on his powers. And that is clearly evident because Superman skills as fighter and his intelligence get down played wayyyyy to much. When was last time you remember Superman outskill someone in fight you dodging,weaving,mixing up combos?(etc think Thanos vs Hulk), When was last time you remember Superman going nah I don't have to out punch this enemy let me get an invention,Let me combine my powers in a cool way or let me use a different clever tactic?

Superman does not have to be strongest for me because he is so good in so many areas, He is ultimate hero. I like a Superman who has to push to his limits and surpass it,You knock him down 10 times He gets up 11 times.

I feel like his strength level is mostly irrelevant toward how often writers incorporate his intelligence or his fighting abilities. Take a show like STAS, which is pretty much the weakest Superman since the Golden Age. With the handicapped abilities, did they really play up his wits? I don't feel they did.

I like to think Superman is not classically trained in martial arts. While that might seem like a bit of a disadvantage for Superman, I think in some sense the instincts he develops from traditional martial arts would actually set back Superman as a complete fighter. Think about how a normal bloke is supposed to create leverage and power for something like a punch or a hip throw. The martial arts training is going to teach you how to work with gravity and your own body, but gravity and body mechanics are completely different for Superman. Superman's not stupid, so he's going to craft a unique fighting style that works for him, even if it means just turn yourself into a self-guided projectile with a first attached in front.

Also, I must ask: how are you supposed to tell a compelling EVIL SUPERMAN! tale if he's not the strongest hero out there? Who cares if, say, the fourth most powerful hero is on a rampage when you can just ask the real big guns to take him down?

[LordUltimus]

I feel like his strength level is mostly irrelevant toward how often writers incorporate his intelligence or his fighting abilities. Take a show like STAS, which is pretty much the weakest Superman since the Golden Age. With the handicapped abilities, did they really play up his wits? I don't feel they did.

I like to think Superman is not classically trained in martial arts. While that might seem like a bit of a disadvantage for Superman, I think in some sense the instincts he develops from traditional martial arts would actually set back Superman as a complete fighter. Think about how a normal bloke is supposed to create leverage and power for something like a punch or a hip throw. The martial arts training is going to teach you how to work with gravity and your own body, but gravity and body mechanics are completely different for Superman. Superman's not stupid, so he's going to craft a unique fighting style that works for him, even if it means just turn yourself into a self-guided projectile with a first attached in front.

Also, I must ask: how are you supposed to tell a compelling EVIL SUPERMAN! tale if he's not the strongest hero out there? Who cares if, say, the fourth most powerful hero is on a rampage when you can just ask the real big guns to take him down?

I don't think Evil Superman stories should be a thing unless they're expies.

[Agent Z]

I feel like his strength level is mostly irrelevant toward how often writers incorporate his intelligence or his fighting abilities. Take a show like STAS, which is pretty much the weakest Superman since the Golden Age. With the handicapped abilities, did they really play up his wits? I don't feel they did.

I like to think Superman is not classically trained in martial arts. While that might seem like a bit of a disadvantage for Superman, I think in some sense the instincts he develops from traditional martial arts would actually set back Superman as a complete fighter. Think about how a normal bloke is supposed to create leverage and power for something like a punch or a hip throw. The martial arts training is going to teach you how to work with gravity and your own body, but gravity and body mechanics are completely different for Superman. Superman's not stupid, so he's going to craft a unique fighting style that works for him, even if it means just turn yourself into a self-guided projectile with a first attached in front.

Also, I must ask: how are you supposed to tell a compelling EVIL SUPERMAN! tale if he's not the strongest hero out there? Who cares if, say, the fourth most powerful hero is on a rampage when you can just ask the real big guns to take him down?

Well there's the reactions and emotions of his friends and family to Superman becoming evil. Under The Red Hood was compelling not because Jason Todd was invincible but because of what he meant to Bruce.

Then again, if him not being the strongest leads to less stories about Evil Superman, I can't complain.

And when you think about it, none of the Evil Superman stories had Superman being a threat all on his own. In the Justice League animated series and Injustice, he only gets as far as he does because most of the superhero population takes leave of their senses and joins him. An evil Superman has never been depicted as being a threat on his own.

[LordUltimus]

Well there's the reactions and emotions of his friends and family to Superman becoming evil. Under The Red Hood was compelling not because Jason Todd was invincible but because of what he meant to Bruce.

Then again, if him not being the strongest leads to less stories about Evil Superman, I can't complain.

And when you think about it, none of the Evil Superman stories had Superman being a threat all on his own. In the Justice League animated series and Injustice, he only gets as far as he does because most of the superhero population takes leave of their senses and joins him. An evil Superman has never been depicted as being a threat on his own.

Does the Plutonian count?

[SiegePerilous02]

Well there's the reactions and emotions of his friends and family to Superman becoming evil. Under The Red Hood was compelling not because Jason Todd was invincible but because of what he meant to Bruce.

But an evil Superman story is an inherently different story than Jason Todd. One is the most powerful superhero on Earth going rogue, the other is a former sidekick/vigilante going to the dark side. You get emotional reactions from all characters, but that's only one component in the story. They all need to be executed differently, otherwise all these characters are generic and you can tell the same types of stories with all of them.

Then again, if him not being the strongest leads to less stories about Evil Superman, I can't complain.

There is that, but it would better if DC wrote him as the strongest while also showing some restraint and imagination and NOT turn him evil. Ditto Wonder Woman, though she doesn't get hit quite as hard.

And when you think about it, none of the Evil Superman stories had Superman being a threat all on his own. In the Justice League animated series and Injustice, he only gets as far as he does because most of the superhero population takes leave of their senses and joins him. An evil Superman has never been depicted as being a threat on his own.

The Injustice and especially the DCAU stories (run by Bruce Timm) are done by creators whose grasp on Superman, and all of the characters involved, are pretty dicey. The other heroes shouldn't take leave of their senses and join him. But of all the individual superheroes to go rogue, he's the biggest threat. Considering the characters aligned against him, he'd be taken down eventually, but he'd dish out the most amount of damage before he goes down.

[Kuwagaton]

He'll always have some people take his side if it's a well written story about Superman as an antagonist vs. just flipping some bloodlust switch. To say he'll be alone and it will come down to his sheer power is missing what really makes him effective. Doc Fate will beat the brakes off him any time, so if "the strongest" is the crutch of a story it's going to slip and fall.

What Superman means to people and what it means for people who otherwise like him to have to fight him changes what he can do. If he's just as strong as Diana but willing to go further, that is an elevated threat. If he can supplement his might with experience, a robot legion, and intimate knowledge of his opposition then he's a scarier threat regardless of pecking order.

I think "the strongest" has been the worst development for Superman. Superman in my opinion is really a perseverance character. It is his will and ability to never give up that makes him Superman not powers,Yes he is a power fantasy as well but making him "the most" shifts the focus on his powers. And that is clearly evident because Superman skills as fighter and his intelligence get down played wayyyyy to much. When was last time you remember Superman outskill someone in fight you dodging,weaving,mixing up combos?(etc think Thanos vs Hulk), When was last time you remember Superman going nah I don't have to out punch this enemy let me get an invention,Let me combine my powers in a cool way or let me use a different clever tactic?

Superman does not have to be strongest for me because he is so good in so many areas, He is ultimate hero. I like a Superman who has to push to his limits and surpass it,You knock him down 10 times He gets up 11 times.

Agreed. The fact that he is a capable hero even if you take away the Super is as ingrained into his character as the black hair. Which if you're rating him by other media is subject to change.

Then again, if him not being the strongest leads to less stories about Evil Superman, I can't complain.

It's being the strongest that sets up all of these hero vs hero stories. That's why you don't get like, evil Aquaman, and Parallax was so much stronger than an actual Green Lantern.

[Vordan]

I feel like his strength level is mostly irrelevant toward how often writers incorporate his intelligence or his fighting abilities. Take a show like STAS, which is pretty much the weakest Superman since the Golden Age. With the handicapped abilities, did they really play up his wits? I don't feel they did.

I like to think Superman is not classically trained in martial arts. While that might seem like a bit of a disadvantage for Superman, I think in some sense the instincts he develops from traditional martial arts would actually set back Superman as a complete fighter. Think about how a normal bloke is supposed to create leverage and power for something like a punch or a hip throw. The martial arts training is going to teach you how to work with gravity and your own body, but gravity and body mechanics are completely different for Superman. Superman's not stupid, so he's going to craft a unique fighting style that works for him, even if it means just turn yourself into a self-guided projectile with a first attached in front.

Also, I must ask: how are you supposed to tell a compelling EVIL SUPERMAN! tale if he's not the strongest hero out there? Who cares if, say, the fourth most powerful hero is on a rampage when you can just ask the real big guns to take him down?

If you think WB backing off on all the crappy Evil Superman stories if Supes isn’t the strongest is supposed to be a good argument for keeping Superman the strongest, you’re wrong. If anything that makes me wish they would nerf him. I’m tired of that story and if weakening Supes means we never see it again, nerf the hell out of him. Maybe then we could get stories that aren’t origins, deaths, or turns evil.

[DochaDocha]

Also, I must ask: how are you supposed to tell a compelling EVIL SUPERMAN! tale if he's not the strongest hero out there? Who cares if, say, the fourth most powerful hero is on a rampage when you can just ask the real big guns to take him down?

This part was mostly being facetious. I guess it wasn't really obvious, though I do think if Supes were farther down the totem pole then he'd be less of a candidate for being utilized as the big bad.