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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Default Diana as a strategist and tactician

    So while may times doesn't show it often. How do you think Diana's strategist and tactician skills are in the DC world?
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  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I think she has great skills, especially being the Princess and having training in the past from Hippolyta.

    It is just that for so many years now many of these qualities have not been shown nor discussed by the writers who have taken over WW. They really are not intimately familiar (like we are) with the character, and unfortunately these things have been let to fall to the wayside.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Pretty much agree with Phoenixx9. Among the core members of the Justice League, she is probably the only one who grew up with real training in tactics and strategy, and with Athena as a patron she has the goddess of strategic thinking behind her as well. And given her background, I imagine she is also the best logistician within the League as well, except possibly Oracle. She definitely has the best feel for the need of it.

    Another issue is that it's really tricky to show superior tactics, even more strategy, in fiction. Even if the writer tries, it all too often ends up reading rather as that the opponent is incompetent or stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    So while may times doesn't show it often. How do you think Diana's strategist and tactician skills are in the DC world?
    Diana was trained by the Amazons for tens, hundreds or possibly thousands of years. Not only was Diana trained to be their champion warrior, but she's also an Amazon Princess which makes her a military commander of one of the strongest, if not *the* strongest, fighting forces on Earth.

    Wonder Woman should have superior strategic and tactical skills. Diana should have had experience leading fighting groups of various sizes, whether small teams or an entire army.

    But, I don't think any of that is ever shown. I can't really thinking of any instances where Diana's natural leadership skills, a combination of her personality and her training, are given the chance to shine. Because Batman is the tactician. And Superman is the team leader. So, Diana is often just the muscle (but, not *the* muscle because that is also Superman's role).

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent 86 View Post
    Diana was trained by the Amazons for tens, hundreds or possibly thousands of years. Not only was Diana trained to be their champion warrior, but she's also an Amazon Princess which makes her a military commander of one of the strongest, if not *the* strongest, fighting forces on Earth.

    Wonder Woman should have superior strategic and tactical skills. Diana should have had experience leading fighting groups of various sizes, whether small teams or an entire army.

    But, I don't think any of that is ever shown. I can't really thinking of any instances where Diana's natural leadership skills, a combination of her personality and her training, are given the chance to shine. Because Batman is the tactician. And Superman is the team leader. So, Diana is often just the muscle (but, not *the* muscle because that is also Superman's role).
    Which is why DC should write them has the same role but in different ways. They all can do the same role in different matter. She can't even be the muscle because Superman generally is also muscle.
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  6. #6
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    Some assumptions upthread.

    First, the idea Dian was trained to be their champion warrior. Certainly she was trained, but there are no indicators the deliberate focus was on making her their prominent warrior. Indeed, in most versions of her origin story Hippolyta seems to wish to avoid that outcome. I get that the movie was different on this point.

    Second, in terms of strategy and tactics -again, there is no clear back story. There is an assumption she was trained by virtue of being the Princess Royal, but they also often have a specific Amazon as general (currently Phillipus).

    I can easily agree that Diana would have had training in small group tactics in ‘war games’ because we’ve seen some evidence of those in stories.

    But I get the feeling the real question being asked here is “Would Wonder Woman beat Batman in a game of chess?”
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    But I get the feeling the real question being asked here is “Would Wonder Woman beat Batman in a game of chess?”
    No. The Bat-god cannot be defeated, whether in battle or at chess!

  8. #8
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    First, the idea Dian was trained to be their champion warrior. Certainly she was trained, but there are no indicators the deliberate focus was on making her their prominent warrior. Indeed, in most versions of her origin story Hippolyta seems to wish to avoid that outcome. I get that the movie was different on this point.
    On the other hand, by everyone in-universe, Wonder Woman is regarded as the top-of-the-game melee fighter, both in physical ability and skill, and she did beat every other Amazon at the contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Second, in terms of strategy and tactics -again, there is no clear back story. There is an assumption she was trained by virtue of being the Princess Royal, but they also often have a specific Amazon as general (currently Phillipus).
    True. However, the Amazon culture emphasises that leaders lead, they don't manage. Even if Antiope or Philippus is their general, the expectation is that Hippolyta—and by extension Diana—would lead the Amazons in battle. So as assumptions go, this is a highly defensible one. I'd go so far as to say that given the pieces of Amazon history and culture we have seen, there is no way Diana wouldn't have received a hugely well-rounded training to be an effective war leader and a heir to Hippolyta. We don't need to be spoon fed everything. Clark Kent knows how to do most any job done at a farm; Batman can run a forensic DNA analysis; Diana received a thorough grounding in everything related to being an effective war leader. It's all part of their assumed background.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    But I get the feeling the real question being asked here is “Would Wonder Woman beat Batman in a game of chess?”
    Batman would probably win, because Wonder Woman didn't learn it. But any claim that Batman is the supreme tactician and strategist of the Justice League would have to contend with that Wonder Woman was far better placed to get formal and structured training than Batman was, and for a far longer time.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    On the other hand, by everyone in-universe, Wonder Woman is regarded as the top-of-the-game melee fighter, both in physical ability and skill, and she did beat every other Amazon at the contest.



    True. However, the Amazon culture emphasises that leaders lead, they don't manage. Even if Antiope or Philippus is their general, the expectation is that Hippolyta—and by extension Diana—would lead the Amazons in battle. So as assumptions go, this is a highly defensible one. I'd go so far as to say that given the pieces of Amazon history and culture we have seen, there is no way Diana wouldn't have received a hugely well-rounded training to be an effective war leader and a heir to Hippolyta. We don't need to be spoon fed everything. Clark Kent knows how to do most any job done at a farm; Batman can run a forensic DNA analysis; Diana received a thorough grounding in everything related to being an effective war leader. It's all part of their assumed background.



    Batman would probably win, because Wonder Woman didn't learn it. But any claim that Batman is the supreme tactician and strategist of the Justice League would have to contend with that Wonder Woman was far better placed to get formal and structured training than Batman was, and for a far longer time.
    I'm going to hate myself later for saying this, but Diana being trained to be a strategist and tactician and actually putting that training into practice are not the same thing. Diana might have had the better teachers but we've seen Bruce as a strategist and tactician.

  10. #10
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm going to hate myself later for saying this, but Diana being trained to be a strategist and tactician and actually putting that training into practice are not the same thing. Diana might have had the better teachers but we've seen Bruce as a strategist and tactician.
    It used to be more common in WW's book as she had the wisdom of Athena, which writers had taken to include strategy and tactics. Wikepedia, Superhero Wikia and WW Wikia entries make direct references to her skills as a leader. From Wikipedia:

    Diana is depicted as a masterful athlete, acrobat, fighter and strategist, trained and experienced in many ancient and modern forms of armed and unarmed combat, including exclusive Amazonian martial arts. With her godlike abilities of incalculable superhuman strength, nigh-invulnerability, speed, flight, healing factor and semi-immortality, Diana’s fighting prowess is enhanced.
    But nothing says it better than DC's own page:

    Powers: super strength, invulnerability, flight, combat skill, combat strategy, superhuman agility, healing factor, magic weaponry
    The problem is that, as previously mentioned, everyone in the JL gets stupid when Batman is in the room. Also, DC editors aren't managing her well, allowing writers such as Robinson to have her say things along the lines of 'I wish Steve were here. I'm not very good at planning.'

    The more writers allowed to disrespect what DC themselves set down as her skills and powers, the more she'll be considered not to have them at all

  11. #11
    Mighty Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm going to hate myself later for saying this, but Diana being trained to be a strategist and tactician and actually putting that training into practice are not the same thing. Diana might have had the better teachers but we've seen Bruce as a strategist and tactician.
    Like Gaelforce mentioned, that's due to DC's troubles with characterisation.

    The way many DC writers today see Batman is similar to how the supporting cast viewed Steve Trevor in the 1940s. They get all the credit for what Wonder Woman accomplishes!

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