Age of X-Man: General Discussion *spoilers*

[Havok83]

I disagree with the discussion that this new Xavier is a character assassination. What happenned with Xavier through years of retcons before his death may be, but not this.

Soule made it clear that this is X, not Xavier. The character himself said that multiple times. He is a new man, with all the memories and maybe desires of Xavier, but years in the Astral Plane (it was longer there than in real life), contaminated with Farouk's hate and vile games. He is not a villian exactly now, but he is a different man, willing to do things Xavier would never do, to give mutantkind what they deserve. The annual, with him manipulating everybody so Lucifer was assassinated, is an example.

Xavier himself should not be regarded as a bad man because of it. This is like a corrupted version of the man. The same way we don't think Jean was "cancelled" because of the corruption given by the Dark Phoenix back in the day. Because in a normal situation, she would not have killed an entire planet. But that is good drama for the character and something that she will always have to deal with in some capacity.

except he's not. Xavier mindwiping his students for his own motives is par for the course with Xavier

[Glio]

If you do not like them to write Xavier as shady, I recommend that you do not read the current comics of Invaders. I sincerely believe that he will be the villain of House of X.

[Weather]

except he's not. Xavier mindwiping his students for his own motives is par for the course with Xavier

Yes, Xavier has done that before. He is not perfect and that makes him a great character. Usually men that do great things are not perfect in everything, although history always tries to tell us that. Just because someone did something great, they try to erase all the ugly stuff.

But my point is that this new version of him is not character assassination, because this is a new person. And before he would do things similar to this, but he would feel great shame and regret, because he knew what he did was wrong. X doesn't care, he would not apologize. This is a harsh version of the character. Different from the man we knew.

[spirit2011]

It's so hard to take continuity straight these days as a fan or as a writer. There's so much stuff that I don't personally agree with and I'm well aware that there are things that the writers and editors don't agree with either, and the irony of the fact is that Rosenberg's Jean in Phoenix Resurrection was all ready to deal with the issues and because of the same writer's own issues, nothing came of it.

But the way I like to look at it is that basically the Astonishing Annual never happened and if no one ever touches on it again, then I can continue to act that way. Red was already Jean's way of working through her depression. Taking the entire world's sorrow and depression on her shoulders and mixing it in with her own and resolving to help make it better.

This is a valid interpretation. If it is never referenced again, just ignore it. X-books are terrible with continuity

It was bull****
The first time a writer tried to do something interesting with Jean, showing her depressed, begin resurrected in a world where people she loved are dead, her family is wiped out, mutants have been decimated multiple times as are still feared and hated.

It would have been great to explore how she's feeling, see what she's going through, how she deals with it, regains her resolve, as becomes the Jean grey In Xmen Red who heard all the Pain in the world and decided that she would try to find a solution.

But no, they took another opportunity to throw Xavier under the bus, took away all of Jeans agency with Xavier brainwashing Jean to be heroic and Happy. Doesn't anyone see how insulting this is.

The worst thing is no one is probably going to address this. It's just another number on the list of crappy things that Xavier has done. Forget about it and move on.

We didn't need a story about Xavier giving Jean the "ability to move on", we could have had a story about Jean struggling with depression, overcoming it or finding a way to live with or deal with it, and finding her own way of moving on.

I think we saw jean on Red annual confronting her depression trhrought her interactions with other characters.

I will say that I liked Astonishing for selfish reasons. Jean leaving her sorrow for Scott in the past can only be good

[FUBAR007]

I think he's worse than Magneto and has been that way since Lee/Kirby. Besides him employing teenagers to fight other mutants, he prescribes the "Model Minority" way of thinking and would rather bend over and act like a leg rest for bigoted flatscans than be a revolutionary for mutant rights.

...which would just escalate the conflict, make things worse, and only makes sense if the end goal is either 1) separation and independence from the existing majority or 2) subjugation/destruction of the existing majority.

That's not what Xavier was after. His end goal was to integrate with the human community, not to separate from it or to dominate it. He didn't want mutants to beat human society; he wanted mutants to join human society. His intent was reform, not revolution.

[Glio]

Xavier's ideas to me have always sounded more like assimilation than integration but whatever

[FUBAR007]

I think we saw jean on Red annual confronting her depression trhrought her interactions with other characters.

For all of a few pages.

While she was gone, her entire family was wiped out. Her mentor was revealed to be an evil shitbag. Everything she'd built her life around had been based on lies and/or was utterly destroyed.

That merited more than a few token captions in an annual.

[FUBAR007]

Xavier's ideas to me have always sounded more like assimilation than integration but whatever

Until Morrison's run, there was no such thing as distinct "mutant culture" so assimilation wasn't really a need.

Beginning with Morrison's run and until Xavier was retconned into a villain, assimilation might be more accurate.

[Havok83]

For all of a few pages.

While she was gone, her entire family was wiped out. Her mentor was revealed to be an evil shitbag. Everything she'd built her life around had been based on lies and/or was utterly destroyed.

That merited more than a few token captions in an annual.

Let’s be real. Jean deserved a mini to handle all of this but they did get dirty

[Tycon]

...which would just escalate the conflict, make things worse, and only makes sense if the end goal is either 1) separation and independence from the existing majority or 2) subjugation/destruction of the existing majority.

That's not what Xavier was after. His end goal was to integrate with the human community, not to separate from it or to dominate it. He didn't want mutants to beat human society; he wanted mutants to join human society. His intent was reform, not revolution.

Integration was what was happening in the late 90s/early aughts when mutants were allowed to be themselves and the X-Men and Charles’ “dream” had nothing to do with it. Where does Xavier’s ideology lead? To about 30 years of inactivity. Where does Magneto’s ideology lead? To him freeing a slave country and establishing a mutant nation. Of course I’m not saying that Magneto always does the right thing, even most of the time. But at least something gets done, screw the humans.

[Weather]

Let’s be real. Jean deserved a mini to handle all of this but they did get dirty

This entire plot was more of a Rachel development story. If they would do it with Jean for an entire mini, it would probably just feel the same. I think it should be a great subplot for X-men Red, something to be adressed in a couple issues. That book felt so decompressed sometimes, it would only be better if it had more subplots for Jean and other characters, but everything was revolving the fight against Cassandra.

[Weather]

Integration was what was happening in the late 90s/early aughts when mutants were allowed to be themselves and the X-Men and Charles’ “dream” had nothing to do with it. Where does Xavier’s ideology lead? To about 30 years of inactivity. Where does Magneto’s ideology lead? To him freeing a slave country and establishing a mutant nation. Of course I’m not saying that Magneto always does the right thing, even most of the time. But at least something gets done, screw the humans.

To be honest, the X-men were responsible for Genosha being free from their previous horrible government. Genosha was only after that given by Magneto by the UN to keep him calm, since they did not even recognize their previous government. Of course, Erik did great things for the mutant population there after, but before that, the X-men fought for them. Both "groups" were responsible for the Genosha reinvention.

[Havok83]

This entire plot was more of a Rachel development story. If they would do it with Jean for an entire mini, it would probably just feel the same. I think it should be a great subplot for X-men Red, something to be adressed in a couple issues. That book felt so decompressed sometimes, it would only be better if it had more subplots for Jean and other characters, but everything was revolving the fight against Cassandra.

You are focusing on just End of Greys. Theres ALOT that happened surrounding the charcters that Jean loved in the time that she was dead that wasnt dealt with upon her return. Red was very plot driven. Jean was lead but it had a clear focus and didnt deviate from the conflict with Nova. A mini would have been an opportunity to give her more of a character focused plot to deal with all that other stuff that was glossed over or ignored

[Weather]

You are focusing on just End of Greys. Theres ALOT that happened surrounding the charcters that Jean loved in the time that she was dead that wasnt dealt with upon her return

I thought you were talking about the Grey family only.

Everytime a character dies, there's a lot of potential for stories with them catching up with what happened when they were gone. But nowadays seems to be an idea that a book can't deal with that and some action plot at the same time. In a perfect world, a book like X-men Red should last longer, deal with Jean dealing with the things she lost, deal with the menace of Cassandra and still give the supporting cast reasons to be personally involved in whatever story they are telling. I'm not saying Red was bad, it was great, but it was too focused in one thing. And it really had the space to do more in the between.

[Tycon]

To be honest, the X-men were responsible for Genosha being free from their previous horrible government. Genosha was only after that given by Magneto by the UN to keep him calm, since they did not even recognize their previous government. Of course, Erik did great things for the mutant population there after, but before that, the X-men fought for them. Both "groups" were responsible for the Genosha reinvention.

I should’ve said mutant-only nation. Even after the X-Men, there were still magistrates in the country that still led to a civil war. It was only after Magneto killed them that the nation was good to go. I mean, after the X-Men came in and beat the crap out of Magneto for trying to build an army.