Superman#8 Discussion & Spoilers

[Superlad93]

It's a continuity error. Jon is referring to a different sector, not the one spoken by the Lantern

I think Jon's just being a smart ass lol

[Yoda]

I wouldn't call it an exaggeration. Well, maybe it's an exaggeration if you place it next to what most of us expected to be "crazy Jor-El." But this is a legitimately not well person, and Jon got a sense of that when Jor-El nearly broke out into tears while having an existential crisis over the idea of the universe being nothing but a chaos. That's Jon realizing that the the grown ass adult literally piloting the ship is wondering if life is even worth it/has any point to it.

But yeah, it wasn't a year of Jor-El not talking to Jon. It was a "summer" by Jon's estimation. For all intents and purposes, Jor-El seemed to keep his word at the start, but he grew more distant and cold for the lion's share of the trip, then the black hole happened. Had that not happened it seemed like Jor-El was gonna have Jon back in a "summer" (Jon's time) and in like a week or two (Clark's time).

What I'm guessing happened is that once Jor-El felt like the only other being in the universe that felt just as out of place as him, Jon, pulled away from him Jor-El retreated into himself and either tried to kill the both of them (ending both of their troubles in his eyes) or he genuinely made a mistake in his compromised state of mind, but realized too late and could only apologize to the boy. Either is pretty freakin heart breaking.

After that I'm assuming Jon finds his way back to Earth-0 (props to the little man for that!) and has to go it alone from there. Thus, in his view, he only spent a few months with Jor-El, but several years on his own.

I think at the very least his early experiences are being filtered through the later 7 years of his life and the perception of an 11 year old. A month may as well be a decade. Jor El could have been bringing him home at that point also and just not speaking to him out of guilt or embarrassment.

I would be shocked if Jor El intentionally dropped them in the black hole. That's a swerve from sympathetic to outright evil. I think the accident scenario is far more likely. I also wouldn't be surprised if Jor El spirals afterwards due to guilt. He's been characterized as trying to do good and frustrated that he can't. This isn't the Mr. Oz everyone is criticizing Clark and Lois for trusting.

[Superlad93]

I would be shocked if Jor El intentionally dropped them in the black hole. That's a swerve from sympathetic to outright evil. I think the accident scenario is far more likely. I also wouldn't be surprised if Jor El spirals afterwards due to guilt. He's been characterized as trying to do good and frustrated that he can't. This isn't the Mr. Oz everyone is criticizing Clark and Lois for trusting.

Either way, I think the idea of the one being in the universe he felt could maybe understand him pulling away out of fear really got to him. When the three generations of El men meet again at the end of this road trip I'm sure it's not gonna be a punch fest.

I think this whole deal may have been the aloof, big brain equivalent of a cry for help from Jor-El. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Jon takes back his "grandpa's crazy remark" and Clark feels some guilt for not trying to see it sooner (as if he could, but Clark is Clark, ya know).

And you're totally right to point out that Jor-El did nothing but try to do some good out there. He even made it a point to try dialog before violence every time, but the universe likely seemed to do nothing but prove his theory on chaos correct over and over. I think he's gonna spiral pretty hard too. Maybe try an force the universe to make sense in some way?

When it comes down to it, he may just be a scared old man who doesn't know how to get his feeling across to anyone anymore.

Side note: What were your thoughts on Clark's conflicting feelings about his dad this issue? He clearly holds his dad up to high regard. So much so that he even says "why does my brain refuse to put obvious pieces together about my father?" Between Clark's issues with his dad, Jon's feelings of pressure from who his dad is, and Jor-El's inability to properly communicate with the family he has left, the El men have some stuff they gotta work out. Makes it kind of really cool that Lois, who herself was just as messed up with her father, was the one to finally say enough over in Action 1007.

[Jackalope89]

Age-up isn't for shock value. It's to ship Jon off to join the Legion and remove him from the books entirely. And it's not stuff that will be fixed; Bendis's story is unfortunately becoming a central part of the DCU over the next year, per that announcement DC made.

To quote Lindsey Ellis, "Thanks. I hate it." Well, more now.

At least I have Young Justice animated series to look forward to.

[Yoda]

Side note: What were your thoughts on Clark's conflicting feelings about his dad this issue? He clearly holds his dad up to high regard. So much so that he even says "why does my brain refuse to put obvious pieces together about my father?" Between Clark's issues with his dad, Jon's feelings of pressure from who his dad is, and Jor-El's inability to properly communicate with the family he has left, the El men have some stuff they gotta work out. Makes it kind of really cool that Lois, who herself was just as messed up with her father, was the one to finally say enough over in Action 1007.

I liked that bit and his frustration with Jor El (or himself really) that he took out on Mongul - who go bounced from the Arctic right into Naomi #1. And I really liked the acknowledgement that he has a blindspot with his father. That can be so true within families, seeing it played out here is again just another "Superman is regular problems dialed up to 11" moment. He also focused on his issues with Jor El while not even acknowledging Jon expressing the difficulty of growing up in his shadow. Another blind spot for him. I mean he even says "My father [Jor El] made me Superman" in this issue, but doesn't acknowledge Jon's difficulty with that same pressure.

They all need to get on that therapist's couch.

I'm now curious as to whether Lois' actions in Action 1007 actually are after this arc and she was just kinda fudging the details about Jon's whereabouts for Sam. Because you're right, her taking that step is a direct reaction to Clark/Jon/Jor El. She says she's seen this other set of fathers and sons that can't communicate or be honest with each other and the catastrophic effect it's had on them all. Add how Clark just seems to shut down when confronted with this stuff and no wonder she's writing a book to get to Clark!

[K. Jones]

I started getting this vibe where like Jor-El and Jon are aware of a lot of things. Like, Jor-El has some knowledge that he shouldn't be here but for the Doctor Manhattaning, and Jon knows he shouldn't be here but for the Convergencing. Doctor Manhattan we now know has been meddling for a long time but publication-wise, began actively appearing during the end of Darkseid War. Darkseid War & Convergence were, well, in-tandem as publications, though "War" must've happened "after" Convergence. Both existences were somewhat cemented into reality during Superman Reborn, which merged "two Supermen" and rejiggered the timeline to correct against Manhattan's meddling. Then Oz Effect and Lonely Place of Living were in-tandem and cemented things further.

So Jon and Jor-El have really been inserted into the timeline of Rebirth reality in tandem. And I felt that awareness creeping up.

That was most if not all of the story beats of the issue worth talking about. A lot more "Lois and Clark reacting". A little bit more Superman inner-monologuing and another nerfed Ultra-Threat just being a punching bag, as Mongul joins Despero and a few other classics in just being whupped on in one panel, just to use somebody people recognize without giving them huge story ramifications that they deserve as JLA-tier villains.

Ah, decompression.

[Journey]

Age-up isn't for shock value. It's to ship Jon off to join the Legion and remove him from the books entirely. And it's not stuff that will be fixed; Bendis's story is unfortunately becoming a central part of the DCU over the next year, per that announcement DC made.

What Announcement?

[Yoda]

I started getting this vibe where like Jor-El and Jon are aware of a lot of things. Like, Jor-El has some knowledge that he shouldn't be here but for the Doctor Manhattaning, and Jon knows he shouldn't be here but for the Convergencing. Doctor Manhattan we now know has been meddling for a long time but publication-wise, began actively appearing during the end of Darkseid War. Darkseid War & Convergence were, well, in-tandem as publications, though "War" must've happened "after" Convergence. Both existences were somewhat cemented into reality during Superman Reborn, which merged "two Supermen" and rejiggered the timeline to correct against Manhattan's meddling. Then Oz Effect and Lonely Place of Living were in-tandem and cemented things further.

So Jon and Jor-El have really been inserted into the timeline of Rebirth reality in tandem. And I felt that awareness creeping up.

That was most if not all of the story beats of the issue worth talking about. A lot more "Lois and Clark reacting". A little bit more Superman inner-monologuing and another nerfed Ultra-Threat just being a punching bag, as Mongul joins Despero and a few other classics in just being whupped on in one panel, just to use somebody people recognize without giving them huge story ramifications that they deserve as JLA-tier villains.

Ah, decompression.

I'm honestly starting to suspect that Jor El may have been taken by Ozymandias and not Manhattan and he's working backwards from the "present" in Doomsday Clock. Manhattan may be responsible for the splitting of Superman and the timeline issues, but Oz has now been shown to have somewhat similar capabilities - he breached dimensions and maybe capable of time travel, while and his new cat has Manhattan like abilities or at the least can harness or siphon Manhattan's powers allowing him to mimic and redirect them. And it would make sense that Oz was working somewhat against Manhattan's goals now - like his actions in Russia in Doomsday Clock 8.

[Konja7]

But yeah, it wasn't a year of Jor-El not talking to Jon. It was a "summer" by Jon's estimation. For all intents and purposes, Jor-El seemed to keep his word at the start, but he grew more distant and cold for the lion's share of the trip, then the black hole happened. Had that not happened it seemed like Jor-El was gonna have Jon back in a "summer" (Jon's time) and in like a week or two (Clark's time).

Is it just a "summer" for Jon before the black hole?

I mean Jon seems to be older (13 or 14) when the black hole happened.

[Superlad93]

I liked that bit and his frustration with Jor El (or himself really) that he took out on Mongul - who go bounced from the Arctic right into Naomi #1. And I really liked the acknowledgement that he has a blindspot with his father. That can be so true within families, seeing it played out here is again just another "Superman is regular problems dialed up to 11" moment. He also focused on his issues with Jor El while not even acknowledging Jon expressing the difficulty of growing up in his shadow. Another blind spot for him. I mean he even says "My father [Jor El] made me Superman" in this issue, but doesn't acknowledge Jon's difficulty with that same pressure.

They all need to get on that therapist's couch.

Yeah, I noticed that Clark didn't really comment on that part of Jon's story. It's ironic that all three of these guys can relate so well to one another if they'd just stop to talk about the hard stuff. I just keep going back to that part where Jor-El retreats into himself, and I can't help but feel sorry for both him and Jon. Even though you feel a very strong kinship with the kid, he's still a kid, and you can't make him and equal party responsible for your mental well being. He should've been honest and open with Clark, but it all came out as antagonism and condescension, so it was obviously met with aggression on Clark's part.

Lol I keep thinking about the therapist episode of Rick and Morty. Clark: "Dad, why did we have to chase you across six universes.....and why the hell are you a pickle?!" Jor-El: "I'm PICKLE-JOOOOOOOR!!!"

Is it just a "summer" for Jon before the black hole?

I mean Jon seems to be older (13 or 14) when the black hole happened.

Yeah, that's what it seemed like. I mean, he wasn't freaking out about how long it's been by then. He's also drawn to look about as old as he was in last issue's flashbacks or even at the start of this book.

Plus last issue Jon seems to specifically cite the black hole as when things went wrong in terms of why he was gone so long (relative for him), so one can only assume everything went according to plan before then.

Edit: thinking on it more, I'd say that it's not fair to call it a "summer" because Jon does say he feels like it may have been a year but he's not sure so he called it a summer. I'd say maybe call it like 6 months or so? But the passing of big years doesn't seem to take place till after the black hole.

[Yoda]

Is it just a "summer" for Jon before the black hole?

I mean Jon seems to be older (13 or 14) when the black hole happened.

More or less the same type of scenes were shown in the last issue and it amounted to a few days. John has a new costume in his appearances here, but I don't get the sense years had passed. His casual answer to the GL's question "no my mom knows where I am" also doesn't indicate a huge passage of time. If he'd been gone for a year or more and lost track of time he'd likely know his parents would in fact be looking for him and would not have answered that question that way. He's lost track of time now in the present, but I don't think what we've seen so far took place over more than a few weeks.

[Superlad93]

I also noticed that the name/title Superboy is absent. Kilowog calls him "The Son of Superman" and "Young Superman" and never corrects and asks to be called Superboy like he did with Lobo last issue. In fact all he says back is "thank you, Kilowog" and shakes his hand as if he's owning it now. I'm really thinking he's about done with the name Superboy.

Even the teaser for the next issue says "Jon Kent vs the Crime Syndicate of Earth-3" rather than Superboy vs. them. More fuel for my Jon Kent = Luke Cage theory

[Lvenger]

To quote Lindsey Ellis, "Thanks. I hate it." Well, more now.

At least I have Young Justice animated series to look forward to.

My exact reaction if this is the stunt Bendis is pulling. I'm probably going to need a new favourite superhero after he's done with Superman.

[Yoda]

I also noticed that the name/title Superboy is absent. Kilowog calls him "The Son of Superman" and "Young Superman" and never corrects and asks to be called Superboy like he did with Lobo last issue. In fact all he says back is "thank you, Kilowog" and shakes his hand as if he's owning it now. I'm really thinking he's about done with the name Superboy.

Even the teaser for the next issue says "Jon Kent vs the Crime Syndicate of Earth-3" rather than Superboy vs. them. More fuel for my Jon Kent = Luke Cage theory

He also introduced himself to Arisa as just "Jon."

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

He kidnapped Jon, the whole space trip with Grandpa was agreed from the start by everyone to be only a temporary thing (hence all the referencing of summer). Yet not only does he have Jon in deep space away from his home and family for years against his will with seemingly no end in sight but when the boy tries to get away from him and return home his response is to not communicate with him at all for seemingly an entire year, essentially several months of isolation as punishment.

What part of any of that reads as sane, rational or normal behaviour to you?

He didn’t kidnap Jon, believe me, I do so wish that was the direction Bendis went with. But instead Bendis made Lois and Clark into negligent, pushover parents.