Year of The Villain- DC's 2019/2020 Initiative

[Franny6422]

Sorry' Korath. Can't be bothered with a long winded reply, not being sarcastic honestly, but a lot of what you said about 'Doomsday Clock' has been explained, you need to 'read' as in 'read.' Take the time to digest. For example, Comedian wasn't brought to life' he was snatched as he plummeted to his death, mind you' he has to be put back, as his death instigated the whole 'Watchman' saga. I could go through most of what you are asking to be explained. What can I say' lazy. Hoping someone else might enlighten you. Sorry but Geoff John's 'Doomsday Clock' is more coherent than 'Heroes in Crisis.' Which again is good storytelling, just tired of 'deaths' for shock value. If Wally has really been consigned again to the comic book graveyard that's just Didio dumping on 'Rebirth.'

[king81992]

What's the story of Doomsday Clock ?

More accurately, what is the story of Doomsday Clock as presented in the books as opposed to what the readership knows from interviews, rumors, etc ?

At best, a mess. Nothing makes sense in Doomsday Clock. Nothing.

How can Rorsharch II, Ozymandias, Mime and Marionette travel the Multiverse so easily ? Not explained.

Why has DC World's turned so violently against it's heroes ? Not explained.

What's the plot, the overaching storyline of Doomsday Clock ? Not explained.

Mime and Marionette may be interesting characters and concept, but their raison d'être in the story is, again, not explained. They seek they kid, hence why they jumped into another Universe ? How does it make sense ? It doesn't.

Jones' doesn't try to craft a story, he tries to grasp the spirit of Watchman, its vibe. Unarguably, he succeeds, but it's at the cost of an actual plot being used and proposed to the reader. Watchamn is extremely simple in its central plot : someone is killing former vigilantes and some of them seek him out. Then it branches into a deep conspiracy and how it affects those characters. But even when it seems to stray from the main plot, it's still always there, because all those characters are either back in their costumes or out in the open because of how the Comedian was killed.

In Doomsday Clock, were are 8 issues out of 12 in it and we don't know how Comedian was brought back to life, what Manhattan truly wants, how Ozymandias knew where to find him, why he chose Mime and Marionette. Nothing, not even a hint. And that's discounting the JSA and LOS plot which is, frankly, completely disconnected so far from the main plot.

HiC's first issues weren't just bad, they were terrible. I only started to warm to it in the last issue because I felt that King finally put his A-Game into it. But even from the start, I knew what the story was, per the book : a massacre has happened in Sanctuary, the culprit must be found and stop, and the heroes must deal with the after-effects of this event.

it may not be a good story, but at least it exist, it's a simple foundation which can be built upon and allow for moment of greatness (Superman's speech in the last issue) even if it also allows terrible moment (basically, Superman and Lois before the speech had been utterly terrible in the story).

Both HiC and DDC are far from good, but the former has the potential to still save itself, while the latter is both over-ambitious and far too light in actual story-telling for my taste.

The story of Doomsday Clock was supposed to be about restoring the years Dr. Manhattan stole and bringing back the JSA and LOSH.

I assume that Dr.Manhattan had something to do with it.

It hasn't been explained either, but I suspect that the events of HiC has something to do with this.

At this point, I don't think anyone knows what the plot is supposed to be. The writers are paying lip service to the original intention but it's obvious that the story has been retooled into something new. I suspect that Doomsday Clock will end in a partial continuity reboot for DC comics.

[MajorHoy]

They are dropping because nostalgia fanatics can't take a change. Bendis's work is at least as good as early Rebirth Tomasi . . .

But what about people like me who weren't thrilled with Tomasi's Superman but were enjoying Jurgens' Action Comics run under Stillbirth?

[Franny6422]

Beg to differ' MajorHoy. Again it isn't' about Nostalgia, it's about good plotting and dialogue. The dynamic has changed between Lois & Clark too rapidly under Bendis and plotlines are just contrived. From their past experience, the Kent's allowed Jon to go with Joe-El, but it's okay as Lois was gonna chaperone. Seriously!? Then he underwrites that himself with Lois returning without Jon stating 'he didn't' need me." Seriously!? No consistency with the characters, they will do as the story dictates. That Isn't good writing. Bendis is going to be waiting a long time for that apology. Which is another thing that irked me. Instead of keeping a low profile and getting on with his commission, he reacts with affront and dare I say borderline aggression, against the majority who have criticised his work. Sorry for me' Bendis isn't working for me. Why on earth was he given the two titles? Not a team player?

[failo.legendkiller]

What's the story of Doomsday Clock ?

More accurately, what is the story of Doomsday Clock as presented in the books as opposed to what the readership knows from interviews, rumors, etc ?

At best, a mess. Nothing makes sense in Doomsday Clock. Nothing.

How can Rorsharch II, Ozymandias, Mime and Marionette travel the Multiverse so easily ? Not explained.

Why has DC World's turned so violently against it's heroes ? Not explained.

What's the plot, the overaching storyline of Doomsday Clock ? Not explained.

Mime and Marionette may be interesting characters and concept, but their raison d'être in the story is, again, not explained. They seek they kid, hence why they jumped into another Universe ? How does it make sense ? It doesn't.

Jones' doesn't try to craft a story, he tries to grasp the spirit of Watchman, its vibe. Unarguably, he succeeds, but it's at the cost of an actual plot being used and proposed to the reader. Watchamn is extremely simple in its central plot : someone is killing former vigilantes and some of them seek him out. Then it branches into a deep conspiracy and how it affects those characters. But even when it seems to stray from the main plot, it's still always there, because all those characters are either back in their costumes or out in the open because of how the Comedian was killed.

In Doomsday Clock, were are 8 issues out of 12 in it and we don't know how Comedian was brought back to life, what Manhattan truly wants, how Ozymandias knew where to find him, why he chose Mime and Marionette. Nothing, not even a hint. And that's discounting the JSA and LOS plot which is, frankly, completely disconnected so far from the main plot.

HiC's first issues weren't just bad, they were terrible. I only started to warm to it in the last issue because I felt that King finally put his A-Game into it. But even from the start, I knew what the story was, per the book : a massacre has happened in Sanctuary, the culprit must be found and stop, and the heroes must deal with the after-effects of this event.

it may not be a good story, but at least it exist, it's a simple foundation which can be built upon and allow for moment of greatness (Superman's speech in the last issue) even if it also allows terrible moment (basically, Superman and Lois before the speech had been utterly terrible in the story).

Both HiC and DDC are far from good, but the former has the potential to still save itself, while the latter is both over-ambitious and far too light in actual story-telling for my taste.

I think you need to read again all the run, many of the questions you raised are answered or hinted.
I know that the delay doesn't help to remember everything happened a year ago as the passage between a universe and the other.
Obviously not everything is answered or has taken his place in the masterplan, anyway is an intriguing work.
The Supermen Theory and the political plot, Legacy theme with JSA and hints in Nathaniel Dusk movie plot, hope against despair theme etc etc.
There is too much in this book, I really suggest you to read it again if you missed all of it.
Maybe after his conclusion everything will be clearer or maybe it would be a failure, anyway for now it's really exciting.

[Yoda]

What's the story of Doomsday Clock ?

More accurately, what is the story of Doomsday Clock as presented in the books as opposed to what the readership knows from interviews, rumors, etc ?

At best, a mess. Nothing makes sense in Doomsday Clock. Nothing.

While there are still a lot of unexplained elements and it's moving a little slow for my liking, the points you make below have all been explained more or less within the books themselves or the back matter.

How can Rorsharch II, Ozymandias, Mime and Marionette travel the Multiverse so easily ? Not explained.

Quantum Tunnelling. Ozymandias, a super genius, adapted the Owlship into a breach ship. As mad scientist villains are wont to do. We know he's studied Manhattan for years, was able to recreate the accident that created him, and actually seems to have recreated a hybrid of Manhattan and his cat (which also has the ability to draw Manhattan to it by appearing to collect his energy. Yeah, we don't get schematics, but it's not a plot hole. He's studied Manhattan and appears to be adapting his methods and powers for his own ends. Ozy teleported the giant squid in Watchmen and was able to block Manhattan's temporal vision to hide his plans. Here he's perfected quantum tunnelling. I'll grant you if you had no familiarity with Watchmen it'd be confusing, but you can't knock a sequel for making some assumptions that you're already familiar with the characters in it.

Why has DC World's turned so violently against it's heroes ? Not explained.

The Superman Theory. That all these heroes and villains are just pawns of a government war game and all these battles with super villains are just training with the public as collateral damage. Basically, superheroes are complete frauds with the exception of Superman. The events in Tom King's Batman also appear to be playing a role in at least what we see there. But generally, it's the Superman Theory.

What's the plot, the overaching storyline of Doomsday Clock ? Not explained.

From just the books -The Watchmen Earth fell into nuclear war after Ozy's plan was exposed, Ozy believes if he can get Manhattan back he'll be able to save Earth. He tracks Manhattan down and travels to convince him to come back and save the world. In doing so he's stumbled upon the fact that Manhattan has entered another universe and has been tampering with it. And now Ozy is manipulating both the DCU and Manhattan for his own ends - to save both worlds.

That tampering we know from Rebirth and The Button led to the New 52 "Reboot" and the missing time. That is all unfolding now. I'll acknowledge that it was slow to get to that, but it's been revealed now and really everyone reading the book knew that coming in.

Mime and Marionette may be interesting characters and concept, but their raison d'être in the story is, again, not explained. They seek they kid, hence why they jumped into another Universe ? How does it make sense ? It doesn't.

Ozy wanted Marionette to remind John of his humanity (and help convince him to come back to save his Earth) because Laurie wouldn't (or couldn't) come to help him. Essentially, Marionette was supposed to do what Laurie did in the first Watchmen. Mime was a tag along. In return for helping him, Ozy promised to help them find their kid as part of the payment. Ozy miscalculated there, because Manhattan spared them in the past because he saw what the child they conceived when they were brought to the DCU would do, not because of a moment of humanity.

In Doomsday Clock, were are 8 issues out of 12 in it and we don't know how Comedian was brought back to life

Manhattan brought him back to life to stop Ozy, or more accurately pulled him from the Watchmen Earth into the DCU at the moment of his death to use him to kill Ozy and get his cat, which could track him and summon Manhattan.

what Manhattan truly wants,

Honestly, I think it's pretty clear he wants to die. Manhattan stumbled upon the DCU in his interdimensional walkabout, wanted to find a place in a universe of heroes, that didn't work out, and now he wants to see what Superman does to him and seems intrigued that he could be about to die.

how Ozymandias knew where to find him,

Ozy found him in the DCU using his Manhattan Hybrid Cat. Or more accurately, the cat brought Manhattan to Ozy via the residual energy on the Lantern. If you mean how he found the DCU. That is left vague, but I think it's likely through the same quantum tunnelling he used on the Owlship and probably the cat's ability to pull his energy.

why he chose Mime and Marionette. Nothing, not even a hint.

Ozy chose Marionnette for the reasons outlined above, she was supposed to remind John of a moment of human compassion. Mime is just her plus one. Manhattan spared them because the child they just conceived in the DCU does something he foresaw. What that kid will do I don't expect to play any real role in the story.

And that's discounting the JSA and LOS plot which is, frankly, completely disconnected so far from the main plot.

It's implied that the JSA and Legion were cut out of the timeline. We can assume that Manhattan cuts the JSA out because it doesn't work out when he joins them or takes the place of Green Lantern after killing him. So with that part of his experiment a failure, he just cuts them out entirely. The Legion could be messed up because of all the changes in the timeline or because Manhattan killed them when they came back in time. The first panel of #9 is a bloodied Legion ring above Mars. And the variant cover to #10 is Manhattan with the JSA. But both these plot points appear to be central to the upcoming issues. And Manhattan's goal changed from joining the heroes to getting Superman to the point he would attack and possibly kill him. The only unexplained part is how Rorschach got the newsreel of the JSA.

[Franny6422]

There you go' Korath, couldn't't had explained it better myself LMAO. Think the problem is the sheer amount of time between chapters, that certainly doesn't help. One could say read all 'previous' beforehand, well might as wait for 'trade.' The delays are killing this piece of work. A problem not shared by King' s 'Heroes in Crisis.' No frustration as answers are coming regularly and on date. Sorry this thread has morphed into something else, back to 'Forever Evil 2' I mean 'Year of the Villain.'

[MajorHoy]

Beg to differ' MajorHoy. Again it isn't' about Nostalgia, it's about good plotting and dialogue. The dynamic has changed between Lois & Clark too rapidly under Bendis and plotlines are just contrived. From their past experience, the Kent's allowed Jon to go with Joe-El, but it's okay as Lois was gonna chaperone. Seriously!? Then he underwrites that himself with Lois returning without Jon stating 'he didn't' need me." Seriously!? No consistency with the characters, they will do as the story dictates. That Isn't good writing. Bendis is going to be waiting a long time for that apology. Which is another thing that irked me. Instead of keeping a low profile and getting on with his commission, he reacts with affront and dare I say borderline aggression, against the majority who have criticised his work. Sorry for me' Bendis isn't working for me. Why on earth was he given the two titles? Not a team player?

Why did you use my comment about preferring Jurgens' pre-Bendis story as your excuse to continue to rant and rave about how terrible Bendis has been?

I dropped the Superman books right after Action Comics #1000!

[Robanker]

DC gets this mad idea every so often that "you're only as good as your villain," to which I'm eternally perplexed. One of the most celebrated moments in Superman's 80 year history is hugging a distraught teen and reassuring her not to commit suicide. Where's the villain?

I don't know. I like to think superhero comics haven't just devolved into a mess where it's just two armies of super characters in silly costumes thinking about how to bedevil one another, but it really has. I'm glad that Snyder's Legion of Doom actually has a goal in mind, and if that's the focus of this initiative, well alright... But I am sick to death of villains existing solely to mess with their counterpart (looking at you, Joker). Moreover, elevating villains to the forefront kind of makes your heroes look like chumps if it gets harder and harder for them to stop their criminal opposites.


tl;dr

Never cared for villain spotlights and this hasn't sweetened it.

[Kurisu]

They are dropping because nostalgia fanatics can't take a change. Bendis's work is at least as good as early Rebirth Tomasi, except that it's not what the vast majority of the Superman readership wants, because he isn't playing it safe by pushing the unidimensional perfect family trope that is attached to the Clark and Lois couple.

I'll also point out that i don't like HiC. It's better than Doomsday Clock only because it has a story to tell, however badly it does so and however bad that story is. Doomsday Clock is full of hot air. A very pretty technical feat, but nothing much in term of story. Which sums up why DC is currently tanking : its readership favor no story at all over stories which take risks (and sometimes fail) because it allows them to cling to Nostalgia. It's not a trand started with Rebirth, or even the New 52, but it's definitively a strong element of DC's fanbase, and it is neither sustainable in the long run, nor healthy for the properties.

Yes, all of this. It’s a shame, but DC will always play second fiddle until it’s core base lets go of their Silver Age wank. Demoting Johns and pulling in his reins was a great first step though, and I’m confident in Bendis, King, and Didio and Lee’s ability to course correct the ship. Here’s hoping Wonder Comics and the new young adult imprints bring in new readers to age out the oldheads.

Good riddance Rebirth, you won’t be missed.

[jetengine]

Yes, all of this. It’s a shame, but DC will always play second fiddle until it’s core base lets go of their Silver Age wank. Demoting Johns and pulling in his reins was a great first step though, and I’m confident in Bendis, King, and Didio and Lee’s ability to course correct the ship. Here’s hoping Wonder Comics and the new young adult imprints bring in new readers to age out the oldheads.

Good riddance Rebirth, you won’t be missed.

"Good riddance to good story telling and sales, hello N52 and sinking lines"

[Korath]

"Good riddance to good story telling and sales, hello N52 and sinking lines"

Which were those great stoylines of Rebirth exactly ?

Wonder Woman has been utter trash since Azzarello left, and Rucka's was just as bad as the Finches' run, if for different reasons.

Superman has been ever more boring in the second half of Tomasi and Gleason run; Action Comics has been from the start. King's run is, at best, divisive.

The only titles I can see are better in Rebirth are Deathstroke and New Super-Man, and both of them could have happened easily in The New 52 anyway, especially the latter.

[Agent Z]

Which were those great stoylines of Rebirth exactly ?

Wonder Woman has been utter trash since Azzarello left, and Rucka's was just as bad as the Finches' run, if for different reasons.

Superman has been ever more boring in the second half of Tomasi and Gleason run; Action Comics has been from the start. King's run is, at best, divisive.

The only titles I can see are better in Rebirth are Deathstroke and New Super-Man, and both of them could have happened easily in The New 52 anyway, especially the latter.

You not liking Superman and Wonder Woman doesn't make those stories bad.

[Korath]

You not liking Superman and Wonder Woman doesn't make those stories bad.

And you liking them does, perhaps ?

No, it doesn't. It's not because more people like utter trash, that it isn't trash.

[Agent Z]

And you liking them does, perhaps ?

No, it doesn't. It's not because more people like utter trash, that it isn't trash.

And repeatedly calling something trash doesn't make it trash.

We get it. You've never liked Superman and Wonder Woman outside of the New 52. You've made it clear you barely read any of their comics outside the New 52 (yet seem to feel that makes you an expert on what they were like and whether or not they were interesting).

However, it doesn't mean those characters were badly written. Sometimes, something just isn't for other people. If you liked the New 52 versions of Wonder Woman and Superman, great. Live in your own bliss. But don't think it makes you special or that it makes any other version that you dislike inferior because they aren't those versions.