"Everything counts / it all happened" ?

[Adekis]

I took a crack at a Superman of All Eras version of his history in the view of Morrison's Everything Happened Batman.

Alright, I'll take a look.

Whoa, that was... basically a broad recap of Superman's comic history with everything consigned to one shifting timeline. Making Superman responsible for both the Multiple Earths split and "comic book time's" inability to move forward is... ballsy, I'll say that. I think it works great as a kind of headcanon to keep tabs on everything with as close an adherence to the letter of the law as you're going to get, and in some ways strikes me as a better version of the comics' own version of things.

At the same time, it's pretty convoluted in a way that might not quite "click" as easily to the average fan as Morrison's New 52 attempt at Superman History Reclamation, or even the bland broadness of Reborn's "uhh... any story probably could have happened, maybe, but probably not the same way" thing.

Another thing I'll say is that regarding Superboy-Prime as the abandoned Superboy of Clark's own youth disregards the fact that that Superboy existed in a far more complete form following the Crisis, and died fighting the Time Trapper, after Superboy Prime had already been introduced. But that's ultimately a nitpick I suppose, compared to my earlier points.

Either way, I got a lot of respect for the fact that you actually took the time to put all that together so, many thanks for that!

[Sacred Knight]

I still kinda wonder if there's something to this concept in the idea of the green car recently showing up in Action. It could just be entirely symbolic but its still a point of interest to me.

[Vordan]

I still kinda wonder if there's something to this concept in the idea of the green car recently showing up in Action. It could just be entirely symbolic but its still a point of interest to me.

I’ll be pretty happy if some Golden Age stuff gets folded back in. But we’ll see.

[Yoda]

Nemesis just referenced both Wonder Woman’s clay origin and the JMS run in the latest issue of Wonder Woman. That, the green car, and even the way King has referenced all eras Batman and Catwoman meetings, they could definitely be seeding some kinda grand unifying multi-era theory.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Alright, I'll take a look.

Whoa, that was... basically a broad recap of Superman's comic history with everything consigned to one shifting timeline. Making Superman responsible for both the Multiple Earths split and "comic book time's" inability to move forward is... ballsy, I'll say that. I think it works great as a kind of headcanon to keep tabs on everything with as close an adherence to the letter of the law as you're going to get, and in some ways strikes me as a better version of the comics' own version of things.

At the same time, it's pretty convoluted in a way that might not quite "click" as easily to the average fan as Morrison's New 52 attempt at Superman History Reclamation, or even the bland broadness of Reborn's "uhh... any story probably could have happened, maybe, but probably not the same way" thing.

Another thing I'll say is that regarding Superboy-Prime as the abandoned Superboy of Clark's own youth disregards the fact that that Superboy existed in a far more complete form following the Crisis, and died fighting the Time Trapper, after Superboy Prime had already been introduced. But that's ultimately a nitpick I suppose, compared to my earlier points.

Either way, I got a lot of respect for the fact that you actually took the time to put all that together so, many thanks for that!

It's meant to be more metaphorical, but blown up into a big cosmic event as most stuff in Superman's life is. I view Superboy-Prime and the Pocketverse Superboy of the LSH are each shards of the same guy here. all caused by Superman's original trip back in time to Krypton. In Infinite Crisis, all three facets of himself were in conflict, the boy, the young man and the old man.

[phonogram12]

I never read Grant Morrison's critically acclaimed BATMAN run. It's on my comic book bucket list (now there's a thread that needs to be made!), but it's gonna havta wait for now.

But what fascinates me most about hearing people talk about it is the concept that Morrison insists every single Batman story from 1939 to the present counts and somehow has happened. Nothing is thrown out or forgotten.

I have so many questions. But chief among them is this:

Can this "everything counts" idea of his please be applied to Superman and his mythos?

I would love it if everything from 1938's ACTION COMICS #1 through the present all counted/happened in some narratively tangible way.

What did Morrison do to Batman to make all his previous histories count? Could it be done for Superman?

Or is Superman just too complicated for that to work?

I actually think it works for Superman far better. In Supes' sci-fi/fantasy world, it's a perfect fit, IMHO. And now while I know this is purely personal preference on my part, I've always liked my Batman far more grounded than Morrison writes him, hence, my not being a huge fan of his Batman run (although I am a HUGE fan of his Superman and JL stories).

[phonogram12]

Easiest handwave solution would be Hypertime. Everything happened, but in parallel universes.

Man, I love the concept of Hypertime. You can literally tell any sort of Batman story you want without compromising a version it would just be awkward with. It's like the ultimate comics version of having your cake and eating it, too!

[The World]

No I don't really think that's all that possible. Granted this is just my opinion and everything but I've been following this character for roughly a decade and watching the fanbase for even longer to me the Pre and Post Crisis interpretations of Superman are like water and oil.

When fans of either era are presented with examples of characterization of the other they tend to cringe and go on about how it doesn't jive with their idea of Superman. I don't really want to see a Superman that's comfortable in his own skin and background as an alien give way to a Superman that's wants to be human. The latter is just a far less confident take to me and I see confidence in himself as a forefront trait of Superman's character.

And honestly if people weren't ready for Morrison's Jeans/T-Shirt Superman that aren't going to be able to handle OG Siegel&Shuster characterization. They just aren't ready for it. S&S Superman was at the peak when it came to confidence, ruggedness, determination and energy. I don't want to see all that "develop" into a guy who can't compare in any of those areas. Golden Age Superman was a complete badass, Post-Crisis Superman and Silver Age Superman just had their moments imo.

Sure you could go back and say stuff happened but if the finished product i.e modern Superman is lesser hero then what's the point? Part of what made Grant Morrison approach work was that he also built Bruce into the Ultimate Batman. The only writer that's shown definitively they can write an Ultimate Superman is well Grant Morrison across Final Crisis, Justice League, N52, and All Star he showed that but he also seems done with the character. We couldn't even make it through Action Comics 1000 without people apologizing for Actions Comics 1 could we ever have a definitive Superman when people can even leave the guys iconic moments alone?

I feel if you want the old stuff to count you should probably just get Old Kal-L and let him be reclaim the Pre-Crisis stories.

I'm open to being proven wrong though.

[Gurz]

Morrison needed a broken Batman to fix because that's what he does, he comes to a shitty title and makes it good. In Batman's case, Batman was already good without the shitty history, so he brought all the silver age stuff back and break Batman to fix but i don't think his run will matter something like The Dark Knight Returns or Year One in time.

[Vordan]

Morrison needed a broken Batman to fix because that's what he does, he comes to a shitty title and makes it good. In Batman's case, Batman was already good without the shitty history, so he brought all the silver age stuff back and break Batman to fix but i don't think his run will matter something like The Dark Knight Returns or Year One in time.

Damian alone means no one is ever forgetting his run. Even stuff like the Young Justice cartoon is drawing on what Morrison did.

[Kuwagaton]

No I don't really think that's all that possible. Granted this is just my opinion and everything but I've been following this character for roughly a decade and watching the fanbase for even longer to me the Pre and Post Crisis interpretations of Superman are like water and oil.

When fans of either era are presented with examples of characterization of the other they tend to cringe and go on about how it doesn't jive with their idea of Superman. I don't really want to see a Superman that's comfortable in his own skin and background as an alien give way to a Superman that's wants to be human. The latter is just a far less confident take to me and I see confidence in himself as a forefront trait of Superman's character.

And honestly if people weren't ready for Morrison's Jeans/T-Shirt Superman that aren't going to be able to handle OG Siegel&Shuster characterization. They just aren't ready for it. S&S Superman was at the peak when it came to confidence, ruggedness, determination and energy. I don't want to see all that "develop" into a guy who can't compare in any of those areas. Golden Age Superman was a complete badass, Post-Crisis Superman and Silver Age Superman just had their moments imo.

Sure you could go back and say stuff happened but if the finished product i.e modern Superman is lesser hero then what's the point? Part of what made Grant Morrison approach work was that he also built Bruce into the Ultimate Batman. The only writer that's shown definitively they can write an Ultimate Superman is well Grant Morrison across Final Crisis, Justice League, N52, and All Star he showed that but he also seems done with the character. We couldn't even make it through Action Comics 1000 without people apologizing for Actions Comics 1 could we ever have a definitive Superman when people can even leave the guys iconic moments alone?

I feel if you want the old stuff to count you should probably just get Old Kal-L and let him be reclaim the Pre-Crisis stories.

I'm open to being proven wrong though.

When you compare circumstances it's really not a different character. Outside of Johns' Infinite Crisis, maybe. But I think the stories where Kal El goes back in time hold true to Kal L as close to the letter as you can get with different writers years apart from each other culturally.

[C_Miller]

I think Superman is a little bit harder to do this style of storytelling, because he has so many competing origins. Until the travesty that was Zero Year, every Batman origin could roughly be reconciled. To do an "Everything Counts" Superman story, your first order of business would be working out how Action Comics #1 where Clark was brought to the government first, Man of Steel, Birthright, Secret Origin, Morrison's Action Comics run all fit together. Easier said than done.

[bigstupidjellyfish]

I mean, it could but the real question is: should it?

There’s some stupid stuff in Superman’s history that easily overshadows the stupid stuff in Batman’s. Do we really want “Clark makes a machine that turns Lois Lane into a black woman“ or ”the Superhorse is horny for Supergirl” to count?

[Ascended]

I mean, it could but the real question is: should it?

There’s some stupid stuff in Superman’s history that easily overshadows the stupid stuff in Batman’s. Do we really want “Clark makes a machine that turns Lois Lane into a black woman“ or ”the Superhorse is horny for Supergirl” to count?

Yes. We want those things to "count" so they're available for writers to use going forward.

That doesn't mean those stories have to be directly referenced or established concretely in the continuity. But you want as much on the table as possible when writing so you have more to work with. Perhaps somebody has an idea for a story involving Clark and/or Lois trying to infiltrate a white supremacist group (wouldn't be the first time) to take down Bloodsport. If the story where Clark made Lois a black woman is nebulously in his history somewhere, then that machine can be pulled out and used again without much effort.

Sure, you could just have Clark invent the machine "again, for the first time" but why waste the panel time when you can say the original machine has just been in the Fortress basement? And you know how much fans love a good easter egg. And a lot of the time, a writer will get a lot of extra credit with fans if they can prove they know their Super-history as well as we do.

Maybe no one ever revisits any aspect of a particular story, ever. But its better to be able to squeeze that stuff in the continuity somewhere, somehow, rather than explicitly cutting stuff out so it can never be used or contribute to anything again. Why reduce and take things away when you can add and build? And the stuff you dont want to use, you can just ignore without having to wipe it from continuity all together.

[Ascended]

No I don't really think that's all that possible. Granted this is just my opinion and everything but I've been following this character for roughly a decade and watching the fanbase for even longer to me the Pre and Post Crisis interpretations of Superman are like water and oil.

I feel if you want the old stuff to count you should probably just get Old Kal-L and let him be reclaim the Pre-Crisis stories.

I'm open to being proven wrong though.

Try looking at it less as a linear progression (from Golden Age badass to modern era) and more as a way to fuse everything together. Everybody gets some of what they want, and we end up with a Superman who better represents all of his history and is more well-rounded as a character for the different facets the various eras bring out in him.

You wouldn't necessarily need to say that Clark started out as the badass young social crusader of the Golden Age and then mellowed out into the yuppie of early post-Crisis before becoming today's family man.

Don't make his history a layer cake; throw it all into a blender and make a smoothie out of it.

....I could clarify what I mean by that, if it doesn't make sense.